From tcwug-list-admin at archives.real-time.com Tue Aug 13 23:01:31 2002 From: tcwug-list-admin at archives.real-time.com (tcwug-list-admin@archives.real-time.com) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:33:22 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] [tcwug-web] TCWUG Website, (1) maps needed & (2) mailing list Message-ID: <001901c24347$508f41e0$0200000a@iaxs.net> Skipped content of type multipart/related-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Map1OfMeetingPlace.gif Type: image/gif Size: 5232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020813/85bcfa77/Map1OfMeetingPlace.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Map2OfMeetingPlace.gif Type: image/gif Size: 6362 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020813/85bcfa77/Map2OfMeetingPlace.gif From dante+tcwug at plethora.net Thu Aug 1 01:28:59 2002 From: dante+tcwug at plethora.net (Daniel Taylor) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: service offerings (Read This!) In-Reply-To: <20020727195842.R16733@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jul 2002, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote: > > I don't think it matters what anyone wants. > > To some extent this is true. What _can_ be done is independent of what people want. > Let's examine the 2 topics being discussed: > > 1) Overlay network > 2) Hotspots > > What does #1 provide? > > a) A twin cities-wide network where content can be shared (such as the ftp > mirrors at real-time). > b) internet access via various access points that choose to have a default > gateway and a route to the 'net > c) hotspots that are not in-range of the rest of the wireless > network, but are connected to it via tunnels over the internet (ie: GRE) > I am becoming even more convinced that this is a prerequisite to #2. What good is a hotspot with no connectivity? > What does #2 provide? > > a) internet access via various access points that choose to have a default > gateway, and a route to the 'net > b) connectivity to other hotspots via tunnels over the internet (ie: GRE) > > Now, what have people expressed a wish for (owner viewpoint): > 1) reimbursement for cost of equipment (non profit) This makes sense for shared equipment, and there are ways to work with this. > 2) profit (make money, isp-style) That would involve another group. Any "profits" from the operation of a TCWUG wireless network should go back into the WUG and the network. It would be nice for the WUG to have a small budget for community outreach, presence at community gatherings (fairs, parades, etc.). I don't see profits coming out of this though, we will be best served if we simply try to share the _costs_ of the connectivity among ourselves. And it is not going to be a cheap project, though there are opportunities for cost savings in quite a few areas. > 3) connectivity to other nodes This is the core of the whole matter. > > What do users want: > 1) connectivity > 2) alternative to slow downloads over the 'net that are from sites that > are local (ie: real-time's ftp mirror) I do not think that a TCWUG network should have "users" as such until we decide that we are ready for them. Setting up a network to be used by a relatively small group of geeks is much different from setting up a network for general public use. I mean, how many regular users could setup IPv6 on MSWindows? > > > Conflicts: > > The /only/ conflict I see is where it comes to people profiting from their > access points, I can see where people would have an issue in the following > scenario: > > User connects to access point #1 > > Access point #1 connects to > > User gets on the net via gateway Z, which is charging User for bandwidth. > > access point #1 feels used because he's not making any money off it. > > > Personally, I do not feel that there's any profit to be made from a network > like this, I've worked for an ISP that tried, they are now bankrupt. I agree with this, which is why I keep suggesting the Co-op model. The best we can reasonably hope for is fair cost sharing. If we happen to do better than that, cool, but nobody should be getting hung up on "profitability" or on anyone other than the upstream connectivity providers getting more out of the system than they put into it. > > I do believe it's completely possible to build the network, keep it stable, > and very usable. I see the network as an overlay network regardless of what > anyone calls it (car, truck, motorcycle.. they're all still an automobile) > different access points will decide, on their own, weither or not they're > going to allow internet access from their access point. There's no need > to discuss it, because it's not a group decision. The overlay vs. hotspot > question is moot, access points that wish to connect to each other will, > access points that either cannot, or will not, connect to the rest, won't. > > Any questions, or something I missed? > > What I Think We Need To Figure Out: > > Mobile IP > Global Routing Protocol (BGP?) > Global Network Authentication (ie, nocatauth or something custom) > -- Daniel Taylor dante@plethora.net From chrise at pobox.com Thu Aug 1 13:40:42 2002 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] new Linksys WAP11 v2.2 firmware Message-ID: <20020801142020.H11332@n0jcf.net> A new "official" firmware showed up on the Linksys site day before yesterday. It is version 1.01c. We have installed it here and preliminary testing seems to indicate that it has fixed the MTU size problem. We are now running Mac laptops at 1500 MTU and they are able to do all of the things that failed before... such as printing, browsing to most SSL web sites, etc. that required us to reduce the MTU to 576 previously. We have reset the timer on the "random tip over every few days" problem and will see if that is improved as well. I was running a version 1.10 firmware that a Linksys tech support person gave me and it seemed to be improved in this tip over area. It did not fix the MTU problem though. Anyway, I am hopeful this 1.01c follows suit. http://www.linksys.com/download/firmware.asp?fwid=163 gets you to the firmware I believe. cje -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~chrise From shad at wnoc.com Thu Aug 1 17:08:09 2002 From: shad at wnoc.com (Jay Wineinger) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] AP suggestions Message-ID: <1028240830.983.17.camel@ShadowLappy> Im heading off to college in a few weeks and Ive already arranged to have DSL installed into my dorm room. Being as that its a small campus, I would also like to set up an access point either in my room or on the roof of the dorm so that I can roam around with my laptop a little bit. I already own a 8dBi-omni and Im looking for a decent AP that has an external antenna connector. Im faily new to wireless stuff so any recommendations on hardware/hardware positioning/etc would be welcome. Try and remember this is a college student budget =) Thanks, Jay From sulrich at botwerks.org Sat Aug 3 08:54:15 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005 Subject: service offerings (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?) In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0072572F1@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0072572F1@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <20020803093114.B4887@botwerks.org> comments inline ... when last we saw our hero (Sunday, Jul 28, 2002), Austad, Jay was madly tapping out: > Like I said, I've never set up a network with a private AS before, > the only ones I've set up had their own public AS number. So I'm > unsure as to how confederations and such fit into this, but from the > sound of it, it seems like a confederation is simply like an OSPF > area. well - from the perspective that a confederation allows you to break an AS up internally from an iBGP perspective much like OSPF allows you to bust things up into areas i suppose that is true. there are more differences than there are similarities, but we digress. ;-) for more information on the topic ref the following. [1] > > In any case, I think we are jumping ahead of ourselves by discussing > BGP and all that. We don't even have a base network to play around > with yet, the conversation just went the way it did for who knows > what reason. i'll second that... w/o any nodes to play with this is largely moot. > > My problem is, I live in brooklyn park, and I have lots of tall > trees, so to set up a link with anyone else I'm going to have to get > a nice tall mast and hope the city doesn't come over and break my > knees for violating some ordinance. I have a friend in North > Minneapolis though that would likely be willing to let me put up an > antenna at his place, and he works for a local ISP also, so it's > possible that they might be interested in putting an antenna on > their roof (near Surdyk's). I'd like to put one on the roof of > where I work, but out building people barely let us put our > satellite feeds up there. i don't think that your dilemma is particularly unique here in the twin cities. avi and i aren't too far from each other here in ne minneapolis and i'm pretty much at the top of the "hill" from a topographic perspective and there's no way i'd be able to reach him w/o some determined effort utilizing a chainsaw. in messing around with some decent topographic data that i managed to get my hands on a while ago (courtesy of some friends with national geographic maps) i saw that w/o towers or APs on big landmarks we'd really have our work cut out for us and no shortage of roadblocks. handwaving about FSO and other technologies aside, putting APs on buildings downtown is fraught with some different challenges, i.e. - you'd have to be on top of the tallest buildings within the downtown area with fairly high gain antennas to compensate for the LOS issues. putting antennas on the plymouth building (visi location) is of dubious value given the relatively modest height of the facility and the surrounding buildings. getting on other buildings with decent connectivity might be better but i surmise that this would be priced a bit rich for our tastes. > > If anyone is planning on doing this, are you looking at 802.11b, a, > or that motorola canopy stuff? 802.11b is 1/5 the speed of 802.11a, > and 802.11a isn't too much more expensive. Wouldn't it make sense > to use a faster technology? .11a seems to offer the greatest amount of b/w for the buck but my only hangup with it is the modest distance that it can support. this may not be as big an issue with the appropriate antenna h/w. perhaps the RF wonks amongst us can comment on this ... { snipped - misc previous correspondence } references ---------- [1] - http://www.botwerks.org/rfc_archive/rfc-1965.txt http://www.botwerks.org/rfc_archive/rfc-3065.txt http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/cisintwk/idg4/nd2003.htm#xtocid77 -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From austad at marketwatch.com Sat Aug 3 10:11:59 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] AP suggestions Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA007257334@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Dlink has a new one out which is supposedly the best one on the market. It's $130 at MicroCenter. $102 online. http://192.216.185.10/mwave/doc2/659135.html It has Dlink's turbo technology too, so if you use a Dlink turbo card with it, you get 22Mbps instead of 11Mbps. Jay > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay Wineinger [mailto:shad@wnoc.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:27 PM > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Subject: [TCWUG] AP suggestions > > > Im heading off to college in a few weeks and Ive already arranged to > have DSL installed into my dorm room. Being as that its a > small campus, > I would also like to set up an access point either in my room > or on the > roof of the dorm so that I can roam around with my laptop a > little bit. > > I already own a 8dBi-omni and Im looking for a decent AP that has an > external antenna connector. > > Im faily new to wireless stuff so any recommendations on > hardware/hardware positioning/etc would be welcome. Try and remember > this is a college student budget =) > > Thanks, > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > From austad at marketwatch.com Sat Aug 3 10:12:46 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] http://maps.tcwug.org Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888122@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> > We have some good starting points for access control, but > there is obviously work necessary there. Does anyone have a > good handle on the firewalling rules necessary for bandwidth control? I'm a Network Security Engineer, I think I have a handle on it. :) Jay From veldy at veldy.net Sat Aug 3 10:38:56 2002 From: veldy at veldy.net (Thomas T. Veldhouse) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] AP suggestions References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA007257334@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <002a01c23b0b$1c68bb60$0101a8c0@cascade> I know somebody who bought that and the same hardware claims a 20% increase. 22Mbps is more like 100%. In either case, they claim that they don't think they are even getting 11Mbps, so I wouldn't bother (for that reason anyway). Tom Veldhouse ----- Original Message ----- From: "Austad, Jay" To: Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 10:43 AM Subject: RE: [TCWUG] AP suggestions > Dlink has a new one out which is supposedly the best one on the market. > It's $130 at MicroCenter. $102 online. > http://192.216.185.10/mwave/doc2/659135.html > > It has Dlink's turbo technology too, so if you use a Dlink turbo card with > it, you get 22Mbps instead of 11Mbps. > > Jay > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jay Wineinger [mailto:shad@wnoc.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:27 PM > > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > > Subject: [TCWUG] AP suggestions > > > > > > Im heading off to college in a few weeks and Ive already arranged to > > have DSL installed into my dorm room. Being as that its a > > small campus, > > I would also like to set up an access point either in my room > > or on the > > roof of the dorm so that I can roam around with my laptop a > > little bit. > > > > I already own a 8dBi-omni and Im looking for a decent AP that has an > > external antenna connector. > > > > Im faily new to wireless stuff so any recommendations on > > hardware/hardware positioning/etc would be welcome. Try and remember > > this is a college student budget =) > > > > Thanks, > > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - > > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > http://www.tcwug.org > > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > > From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us Sat Aug 3 13:38:14 2002 From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Another "Project Rainbow" Message-ID: Mentioned in a Computer World article (sorry if this is a repeat I missed): "Intel, IBM Push for Public Wireless LAN" http://www.computerworld.com/mobiletopics/mobile/technology/story/0,10801,72900,00.html From bryan at edgar.sector14.net Sat Aug 3 14:34:54 2002 From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005 Subject: service offerings (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?) In-Reply-To: <20020803093114.B4887@botwerks.org> from "steve ulrich" at Aug 03, 2002 09:31:14 AM Message-ID: <200208032007.g73K7dQ04724@twenty.sector14.net> steve ulrich wrote: > > > handwaving about FSO and other technologies aside, putting APs on > buildings downtown is fraught with some different challenges, i.e. - > you'd have to be on top of the tallest buildings within the downtown > area with fairly high gain antennas to compensate for the LOS issues. > > putting antennas on the plymouth building (visi location) is of > dubious value given the relatively modest height of the facility and > the surrounding buildings. getting on other buildings with decent > connectivity might be better but i surmise that this would be priced > a bit rich for our tastes. The tallest buildings aren't always the best for applications like this. In a base to mobile/portable situation where you have fairly low gain antennas, typically 8 db on the base and 5 db on the mobile, the normal usable range for 802.11b without amplifiers on each end is only around a half a mile. To cover much of downtown is going to take alot more than one site. The plymouth building has quite a few taller buildings around it but I believe that it's fairly open to the north so it could be used as a hub for point-to-point links in that direction that will get us closer to the areas that we want to cover. I believe that there's also a path down hennepin ave which could get us to the Walker Art Center. The Walker isn't real high but it is much more out in the open and I think that we could talk them into letting us put something on the roof fairly easily. They'd love the idea of having network access in the sculpture gardens. From oinos at darkgeek.com Sat Aug 3 16:14:04 2002 From: oinos at darkgeek.com (Jon Thorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] new Linksys WAP11 v2.2 firmware In-Reply-To: <20020801142020.H11332@n0jcf.net> References: <20020801142020.H11332@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <1028410923.1265.3.camel@protomonkey> Has anyone had any luck with getting a v2.2 wap11 to work in ap-client mode? I've tried three different versions of the firmware (1.009, 1.010, 1.01c) with no joy. -j On Thu, 2002-08-01 at 14:20, Chris Elmquist wrote: > A new "official" firmware showed up on the Linksys site day before > yesterday. It is version 1.01c. We have installed it here and preliminary > testing seems to indicate that it has fixed the MTU size problem. We > are now running Mac laptops at 1500 MTU and they are able to do all > of the things that failed before... such as printing, browsing to > most SSL web sites, etc. that required us to reduce the MTU to 576 > previously. > > We have reset the timer on the "random tip over every few days" problem > and will see if that is improved as well. I was running a version 1.10 > firmware that a Linksys tech support person gave me and it seemed > to be improved in this tip over area. It did not fix the MTU > problem though. Anyway, I am hopeful this 1.01c follows suit. > > http://www.linksys.com/download/firmware.asp?fwid=163 > > gets you to the firmware I believe. > > cje > > -- > Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~chrise > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From sulrich at botwerks.org Sun Aug 4 05:13:51 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes? In-Reply-To: <20020723095718.G805@real-time.com> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0088880F2@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020722181542.E805@real-time.com> <20020723045219.GF64770@Geeks.ORG> <20020723114947.GA35720@botwerks.org> <20020723095718.G805@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020723154520.GB37753@botwerks.org> outside of the cisco mobile-ip support - i know of the monarch project[1] (out of cmu) and the mosquitonet project[2]. charles perkins (nokia research fellow) has been doing this for some time and i believe his page [3] has a lot of information on it. it's quite workable it's just a pita to set up. ;-) when last we saw our hero (Tuesday, Jul 23, 2002), Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom was madly tapping out: > > it might bear reviewing if folks would like the functionality. > > although it must be pointed out that this would further burden the > > network since the tunneling mechanisms used would be shuffling > > packets around suboptimally. in a situation where b/w is at a > > premium this might not be an acceptable solution. > > do you have any good links to discussions of it? I'm somewhat > curious about it. > references ---------- [1] - http://www.monarch.cs.cmu.edu/ [2] - http://mosquitonet.stanford.edu/software/mip.html [3] - http://www.iprg.nokia.com/~charliep/ -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From sulrich at botwerks.org Sun Aug 4 08:12:11 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: service offerings (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?) In-Reply-To: <200208032007.g73K7dQ04724@twenty.sector14.net> References: <20020803093114.B4887@botwerks.org> <200208032007.g73K7dQ04724@twenty.sector14.net> Message-ID: <20020804090233.A11657@botwerks.org> when last we saw our hero (Saturday, Aug 03, 2002), Bryan Halvorson was madly tapping out: > steve ulrich wrote: > > > > > > handwaving about FSO and other technologies aside, putting APs on > > buildings downtown is fraught with some different challenges, i.e. - > > you'd have to be on top of the tallest buildings within the downtown > > area with fairly high gain antennas to compensate for the LOS issues. > > > > putting antennas on the plymouth building (visi location) is of > > dubious value given the relatively modest height of the facility and > > the surrounding buildings. getting on other buildings with decent > > connectivity might be better but i surmise that this would be priced > > a bit rich for our tastes. > > The tallest buildings aren't always the best for applications like this. > In a base to mobile/portable situation where you have fairly low gain > antennas, typically 8 db on the base and 5 db on the mobile, the normal > usable range for 802.11b without amplifiers on each end is only around > a half a mile. To cover much of downtown is going to take alot more than > one site. i definitely agree with you here. it would seem that creating "cell" zones with the appropriate coverage would be the way to go down here. but i surmise that the hotspot approach for downtown would be preferrable, given the large number of networks i've encountered downtown with my laptop. > The plymouth building has quite a few taller buildings around it but > I believe that it's fairly open to the north so it could be used as > a hub for point-to-point links in that direction that will get us > closer to the areas that we want to cover. I believe that there's > also a path down hennepin ave which could get us to the Walker Art > Center. The Walker isn't real high but it is much more out in the > open and I think that we could talk them into letting us put > something on the roof fairly easily. They'd love the idea of having > network access in the sculpture gardens. i've been reviewing some maps of downtown as of late and i think that the best route from the plymouth building would be north (directly up hennepin ave.). there's not much in the way of large buildings in that direction. to the south there's a fair amount construction taking place with the new developments on block 'e' and to reach the walker would likely require multiple hops. the notion of putting access on the walker is quite intriguing. coverage of the loring park would likely be handy especially for monday nights in the summer while i can't see what's going on with the movie in the park, i could pull out my laptop and be productive. > From the Walker we can branch off with more point-to-point links to > other places of interest. iirc - kent is a couple blocks away from the walker on the south side up the hill. i don't know what his visibility is to the walker but that might be an option for hopping down towards uptown. > > > If anyone is planning on doing this, are you looking at 802.11b, > > > a, or that motorola canopy stuff? 802.11b is 1/5 the speed of > > > 802.11a, and 802.11a isn't too much more expensive. Wouldn't it > > > make sense to use a faster technology? > > > > > > .11a seems to offer the greatest amount of b/w for the buck but my > > only hangup with it is the modest distance that it can support. > > this may not be as big an issue with the appropriate antenna h/w. > > perhaps the RF wonks amongst us can comment on this ... > > Well, we're going to need point-to-point links to get between the > different areas we want to cover. The links can be whatever we need > them to be to get the job done. I think we'll always want to have > 802.11b at the user access points. If we start maxing it out we can > add an 802.11a card there. If we start out using the cheaper > equipment we can always move things around later as our needs > change. > -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From dante+tcwug at plethora.net Sun Aug 4 14:51:10 2002 From: dante+tcwug at plethora.net (Daniel Taylor) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] http://maps.tcwug.org In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888122@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Austad, Jay wrote: > > We have some good starting points for access control, but > > there is obviously work necessary there. Does anyone have a > > good handle on the firewalling rules necessary for bandwidth control? > > I'm a Network Security Engineer, I think I have a handle on it. :) > Woah, lag. Good that there is someone with the experience in the group. Now, as far as infrastructure goes, I can put myself up as a link since I am on relatively high ground. My main problem is trees. My cable connection will be becoming something else as soon as I can arrange it, so for myself I dan't care about published ICBM addresses. -- Daniel Taylor dante@plethora.net From drechsau at geeks.org Sun Aug 4 17:07:07 2002 From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: service offerings (Read This!) In-Reply-To: References: <20020727195842.R16733@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <20020804225700.GA60882@Geeks.ORG> On Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 07:37:36AM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote: > > 2) profit (make money, isp-style) > > That would involve another group. Any "profits" from the operation > of a TCWUG wireless network should go back into the WUG and the > network. It would be nice for the WUG to have a small budget for > community outreach, presence at community gatherings (fairs, > parades, etc.). Why another group? > I don't see profits coming out of this though, we will be best > served if we simply try to share the _costs_ of the connectivity > among ourselves. Profit doesn't mean that someone is going to make money off of 'you'. How can you share the costs of connectivity unless everyone uses the same 'connection' type? And don't forget the issue about ToS and such either. > And it is not going to be a cheap project, though there are > opportunities for cost savings in quite a few areas. Where? > > What do users want: > > 1) connectivity > > 2) alternative to slow downloads over the 'net that are from sites that > > are local (ie: real-time's ftp mirror) > > I do not think that a TCWUG network should have "users" as such > until we decide that we are ready for them. Setting up a network to > be used by a relatively small group of geeks is much different from > setting up a network for general public use. Why is it different? > I mean, how many regular users could setup IPv6 on MSWindows? Why would anyone want to set up IPv6 on anything right now? > I agree with this, which is why I keep suggesting the Co-op model. That may work, but who is going to pony up the bandwidth to start and the money for access points? > The best we can reasonably hope for is fair cost sharing. If we > happen to do better than that, cool, but nobody should be getting > hung up on "profitability" or on anyone other than the upstream > connectivity providers getting more out of the system than they put > into it. I am willing to dump real money into it, once there is a model that can offer payback and that can run without hackery and without abusive people stealing (yes, I said stealing) services they are not helping to cover the costs on. -- Mike Horwath IRC: Drechsau drechsau@Geeks.ORG Home: 763-540-6815 1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN 55427 Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period. From sulrich at botwerks.org Sun Aug 4 19:16:23 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: list server timewarp - was (Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?) In-Reply-To: <20020723154520.GB37753@botwerks.org> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0088880F2@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020722181542.E805@real-time.com> <20020723045219.GF64770@Geeks.ORG> <20020723114947.GA35720@botwerks.org> <20020723095718.G805@real-time.com> <20020723154520.GB37753@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020804200146.B11657@botwerks.org> not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but i've been running into problems with the mail server for this list. this message and another batch of messages from the tclug mailing from 7/24 made it into my mailbox this AM. i lobbed a message to postmaster@tcwug.org a few days back and haven't received any response. is all well with the server? this smells a lot like secondary mail queues not getting serviced until a week or so later. if this looks to be an ongoing issue i can provide a server to host the mailing list on that is quite well connected and has more than ample horsepower to support the list. if these issues have been permanently resolved this is a non-issue, but if this looks to be an extended situation i am happy to provide a stable home for the list if need be. incidently - regarding a pipermail replacement, i highly recommend mhonarc [1] as a replacement. this works quite nicely with the latest release of mailman and provides a lot of functionality that it would seem pipermail botched in the past. (support for multi-part mime messages, charset conversion, etc.) i've been running this on a rather high-volume list (well in excess of 100+ postings a day) and it runs quite nicely. obviates much of the pipermail nastiness. when last we saw our hero (Tuesday, Jul 23, 2002), steve ulrich was madly tapping out: > > outside of the cisco mobile-ip support - i know of the monarch > project[1] (out of cmu) and the mosquitonet project[2]. charles > perkins (nokia research fellow) has been doing this for some time > and i believe his page [3] has a lot of information on it. it's > quite workable it's just a pita to set up. ;-) > > > when last we saw our hero (Tuesday, Jul 23, 2002), Carl Wilhelm > Soderstrom was madly tapping out: > > > it might bear reviewing if folks would like the functionality. > > > although it must be pointed out that this would further burden > > > the network since the tunneling mechanisms used would be > > > shuffling packets around suboptimally. in a situation where b/w > > > is at a premium this might not be an acceptable solution. > > > > do you have any good links to discussions of it? I'm somewhat > > curious about it. > > > > > references > ---------- > > [1] - http://www.monarch.cs.cmu.edu/ > [2] - http://mosquitonet.stanford.edu/software/mip.html > [3] - http://www.iprg.nokia.com/~charliep/ > > { snipped - misc .signatures } -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From sulrich at botwerks.org Sun Aug 4 22:23:08 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] monthly mtg. reminder (08/06/2002) Message-ID: <20020804231349.A12629@botwerks.org> just a reminder and open invitation to folks interested in wireless networking technology. the monthly meeting of the twin cities wireless users group is scheduled for this coming tuesday (august 6, 2002). the twin cities wireless users group is a place to learn about wireless networking technology, an opportunity to get your hands dirty with a fun community oriented project or just meet some of the locals who are doing fun things in the wireless area. all with an interest are welcome. if you can't make it but you are interested in the technology you may be interested in the mailing list. more information regarding the wireless users group mailing list can be found at the following url. http://www.tcwug.org/mailinglists/ topic ----- this month the floor is open for discussion regarding the construction of a community network and some of the challenges that will need to be addressed in the construction of such a network. *LOGISTICS* ----------- time ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 6:30PM CDT - august 6, 2002 location ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cisco systems - bloomington office international plaza 7900 international drive suite 400 bloomington, mn 55425 directions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- from the north -------------- * take 35w south * take 494 east to the 34th avenue exit, turn right * immediately veer right and take the next right at the light onto 80th street. * take the next immediate right onto international drive. from the south -------------- just like coming from the north except you take 35w north to 494. from the (east|west) -------------------- reaching 35w and following the above directions is left as an exercise for the reader/attendee. after you make it onto international drive ... * international plaza is the large blue glass building to your left. * you may park in the ramp and take the ramp elevators to level 1. proceed through the glass doors to your right and down the lobby foyer the main bank of elevators. take the elevator to level 4 note: you will need to sign in at the guard desk and indicate that you are there for the wireless users group meeting in the cisco office in suite 400. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From drechsau at geeks.org Mon Aug 5 07:12:37 2002 From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] http://maps.tcwug.org In-Reply-To: References: <20020723043853.GA64770@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: <20020725144057.GA93374@Geeks.ORG> On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 09:22:42AM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote: > On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Mike Horwath wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:03:34AM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote: > > > On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Mike Horwath wrote: > > > > > > > I do not think that is the reason at all. > > > > > > Just because my email address is downstream of you > > > doesn't mean that is where my access is. > > > > Why would I assume such? > > > > > Don't assume. > > > > You are assuming I did. > > OK, you just casually go around accusing people of lying > and talk like you have personnally been offended by them. > > That makes sense. Context is something you seem to lose sight of from time to time. I know who plethora.net is, I never assumed you get bandwidth through VISI.com or via a tin can and string to your mothers fathers sisters boyfriends cousins daughter. > You obviously made _some_ assumptions about me with your > initial reply, and I have no idea where you got them > from. I made the assumption that you would keep up. I have issues with this TCWUG group, it is fractured (I am not helping in that respect), the goals are thin and at times undefined, and I *know* of people who are within this group that are not looking for benefits for all. I am stirring up the pot, pushing buttons, and hopefully getting people to think. To do things like this, you gotta push, unfortunately you originally stated that you were not going to be offended, but every post of yours states, without saying the exact words, that you are offended. But it starts you thinking... -- Mike Horwath IRC: Drechsau drechsau@Geeks.ORG Home: 763-540-6815 1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN 55427 Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period. From drechsau at geeks.org Mon Aug 5 07:31:11 2002 From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: service offerings (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?) In-Reply-To: <20020723095148.F805@real-time.com> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0072572A5@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020723095148.F805@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020725144416.GB93374@Geeks.ORG> On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 09:51:48AM -0500, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > anything larger than several hundred geeks, gets too impersonal and > unwieldy (compare the Internet of several years ago; or the BBS scene; to > the Net of today); so I'm kind of opposed to it. In short, being an ISP does > not bring happiness; being part of a community of clueful people comes much > closer. That's just my view, tho. Feel free to discuss. :) You can have both. I agree that when you get large, it starts to become less personal, but the community can rise to the top and contribute. In fact, some people can become rabid supporters or dissenters. Still part of the community. Even the place I work has a community. It is kind of inbred and rabid and weird, but a community it is. -- Mike Horwath IRC: Drechsau drechsau@Geeks.ORG Home: 763-540-6815 1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN 55427 Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period. From drechsau at geeks.org Mon Aug 5 07:50:44 2002 From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes? In-Reply-To: <20020723003307.H23877@real-time.com> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0088880F2@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020722191519.M82857@madgenius.com> <20020723045438.GG64770@Geeks.ORG> <20020723003307.H23877@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020725145500.GC93374@Geeks.ORG> On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 12:33:07AM -0500, Bob Tanner wrote: > You want something that can (gotten from the poorly named thread Richochet > boxes?): > > provide QoS (ala traffic shapping?) > accounting (ala RADIUS-like stuff?) > logging (what do you want to log?) > authentication > Something that works on other those "other" operating systems > > That a list of basic (drechsau) requirements ? Basically. Let me break it down further: QoS as needed, allow people to perhaps purchase levels of service, offer 'times' where things are more open, set up the network to handle far more than 3 people all downloading Warcraft III. Authentication and accounting (which is the logging) to allow a model of 'pay for use', to help track down 'abuse', to allow reports to be drawn up to show how well the business model is working when it is time for the next round of 'funding'. Logging is not about privacy invading information. Logging could be anonymized logs from a transparent cache server to determine where the next 'connection' should come from when dealing with local connections. Etc. Limiting to an OS sucks, I think it needs to be worked on for far more than 'one'. The marketing level of a system doesn't mean the system is the right one :) What we need is a 'standard' for doing stuff via the AP and things would be far more fun and easy for keeping 'abuse', 'theft', and overall 'sharing' at acceptable levels. -- Mike Horwath IRC: Drechsau drechsau@Geeks.ORG Home: 763-540-6815 1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN 55427 Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period. From dante+tcwug at plethora.net Mon Aug 5 08:37:05 2002 From: dante+tcwug at plethora.net (Daniel Taylor) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] http://maps.tcwug.org In-Reply-To: <20020725144057.GA93374@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: I overreacted. Sorry about the noise folks. -- Daniel Taylor dante@plethora.net From moebius at bitstream.net Mon Aug 5 09:32:01 2002 From: moebius at bitstream.net (Joe Robertson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link Message-ID: <20020805145728.GA5354@bitstream.net> I'm looking to interconnect two offices with very solid, direct LOS that are about six blocks apart. I'm looking at DS3 or 100Mbit speeds and thought I'd throw the question to this group for ideas. This project needs a cheap but reliable connection. I'm currently looking at some Tsunami 100Mbps bridges, but would love to hear other suggestions. Thanks, Joe From jeffr at odeon.net Mon Aug 5 09:38:05 2002 From: jeffr at odeon.net (jeffr@odeon.net) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: QoS, accounting, authentication - Was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes? In-Reply-To: <20020725145500.GC93374@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: I've got what may be a simplistic scenario, and may not even be feasible, so if this is foolish or far too simplistic please let me know... Should the TCWUG network develop into a metro-wide wireless network without direct internet access, and using a non-routed IP block, then couldn't those people that have broadband set up something like the following? Say I've got broadband (DSL, Cable, other). Chances are I've got a firewall, and if I don't I probably should. Could I not make a 3-legged firewall and put my broadband connection on one port, my private network on another port, and a wireless access point connected to the third port? This would allow me to use ipsec or pptp from the wireless network to connect to my home network, and from there get out to the greater internet. I could share my access point as a means of connecting to the larger TCWUG wireless network, but not provide internet access to anyone else via my broadband connection. Would something like this not solve most of the problems people have been bringing up? I now have a responsibility on my end to monitor usage of my own internet connection. If I choose I can share my broadband connection with my friends (assuming a ToS that allows that of course) but not with the whole Twin Cities. Those businesses that want to (realtime?, visi?, others?) can provide a gateway service of sorts for some hopefully nominal fee. The burden is then on them for authentication and accounting for their customers. The same burden that they have for all of their other customers. The wireless network wouldn't need to use a routed IP address range. When I connect to my home network I'd get an IP from my private network which is behind my NATing firewall. Anything that I can do from home I can do from my laptop at the neighborhood coffee shop. Should I wish to pay an ISP for a gateway service then I'll get a routed IP from them and can do anything on the internet (including use those services that are difficult to provide for with a NATed address). Now, there obviously wouldn't be unlimited bandwidth on the wireless network, and I realize I'm treating the entire wireless network as essentially one big lan which may not be feasible. Someone would have to host a DHCP server for this thing. Broadcast domains would have to be created. Realistically though, those are design issues and shouldn't be impossible to solve. I'm sure there are many other issues that I haven't thought of, but that's what a discussion like this is for. Still, it seems to me to address some of the sticking points that the group has been getting caught up on. The TCWUG would not be in the position of providing a means of internet theft and as such have no liability should Qwest or AT&T get upset and decide to throw their lawyers at a perceived problem. The group no longer needs to worry about authentication. That would be handled by those ISPs providing a gateway service, or by those people that want to be able to access their home network and broadband connection via the wireless network. Accounting may still be an issue. Usage will need to be monitored to determine where more bandwidth needs to be allocated. Perhaps an 11 Mbps backbone won't be sufficient for the network. Once the backbone is faster than the rest of the network the group would need to determine what branches off the backbone need to be upgraded. A group of APs in St. Louis Park may need more than 11 Mbps, while other parts of the Cities aren't even close to saturating their 11Mbps to the backbone. Such a system is OS independent. I can establish a PPTP or IPSEC connection to connect to a gateway service from Linux, BSD, MacOS, or Windows. Basic connectivity to the wireless network should be fairly simple for Joe User. Plug in a wireless nic, configure for DHCP, and you're on the network. You can't get out to the internet at this point, but you can access any services being provided on the wireless network. A community intranet of sorts perhaps. If the user wants to get out to the internet then they either need to figure out how to correctly set up their home network (and be providing an access point on the wireless network) or they need to purchase a gateway service from an ISP. If they are doing it on there own they could get help from this mailing list, or perhaps the TCLUG mailing list if they are using linux for their firewall. If they are purchasing a service from an ISP, then they can call the ISP for technical support. Jeff On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Mike Horwath wrote: > On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 12:33:07AM -0500, Bob Tanner wrote: > > You want something that can (gotten from the poorly named thread Richochet > > boxes?): > > > > provide QoS (ala traffic shapping?) > > accounting (ala RADIUS-like stuff?) > > logging (what do you want to log?) > > authentication > > Something that works on other those "other" operating systems > > > > That a list of basic (drechsau) requirements ? > > Basically. > > Let me break it down further: > > QoS as needed, allow people to perhaps purchase levels of > service, offer 'times' where things are more open, set up the > network to handle far more than 3 people all downloading > Warcraft III. > > Authentication and accounting (which is the logging) to allow > a model of 'pay for use', to help track down 'abuse', to allow > reports to be drawn up to show how well the business model is > working when it is time for the next round of 'funding'. > Logging is not about privacy invading information. Logging > could be anonymized logs from a transparent cache server to > determine where the next 'connection' should come from when > dealing with local connections. Etc. > > Limiting to an OS sucks, I think it needs to be worked on for > far more than 'one'. The marketing level of a system doesn't > mean the system is the right one :) > > What we need is a 'standard' for doing stuff via the AP and things > would be far more fun and easy for keeping 'abuse', 'theft', and > overall 'sharing' at acceptable levels. > > From natecars at real-time.com Mon Aug 5 09:52:53 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link In-Reply-To: <20020805145728.GA5354@bitstream.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Joe Robertson wrote: > I'm looking to interconnect two offices with very solid, direct LOS > that are about six blocks apart. I'm looking at DS3 or 100Mbit speeds > and thought I'd throw the question to this group for ideas. > > This project needs a cheap but reliable connection. I'm currently > looking at some Tsunami 100Mbps bridges, but would love to hear other > suggestions. From cheath at interlinkcom.com Mon Aug 5 10:26:24 2002 From: cheath at interlinkcom.com (Heath, Chandler) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link Message-ID: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F3A4@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> I would echo the same sentiment. The Tsunami products are excellent performers at at the right price. -----Original Message----- From: Nate Carlson [mailto:natecars@real-time.com] Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 10:38 AM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Joe Robertson wrote: > I'm looking to interconnect two offices with very solid, direct LOS > that are about six blocks apart. I'm looking at DS3 or 100Mbit speeds > and thought I'd throw the question to this group for ideas. > > This project needs a cheap but reliable connection. I'm currently > looking at some Tsunami 100Mbps bridges, but would love to hear other > suggestions. From andyw at pobox.com Mon Aug 5 11:00:02 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link In-Reply-To: <20020805145728.GA5354@bitstream.net>; from moebius@bitstream.net on Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 09:57:28AM -0500 References: <20020805145728.GA5354@bitstream.net> Message-ID: <20020805113948.A12899@florence.linkmargin.com> Joe Robertson wrote: > I'm looking to interconnect two offices with very solid, direct LOS that are about six blocks apart. I'm looking at DS3 or 100Mbit speeds and thought I'd throw the question to this group for ideas. > > This project needs a cheap but reliable connection. I'm currently looking at some Tsunami 100Mbps bridges, but would love to hear other suggestions. I think you'll be very happy with this choice. WMUX stuff is reliable as hell, works exactly as advertised and should serve you well for years. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From moebius at bitstream.net Mon Aug 5 11:16:42 2002 From: moebius at bitstream.net (Joe Robertson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link In-Reply-To: <20020805145728.GA5354@bitstream.net> References: <20020805145728.GA5354@bitstream.net> Message-ID: <20020805170028.GA5893@bitstream.net> Thanks for all the replies. Let me throw an addendum. Does anyone have any recommended local installers/VARs? Thans again, Joe On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 09:57:28AM -0500, Joe Robertson wrote: > I'm looking to interconnect two offices with very solid, direct LOS that are about six blocks apart. I'm looking at DS3 or 100Mbit speeds and thought I'd throw the question to this group for ideas. > > This project needs a cheap but reliable connection. I'm currently looking at some Tsunami 100Mbps bridges, but would love to hear other suggestions. > > Thanks, > > Joe > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From chrome at real-time.com Mon Aug 5 11:23:51 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] wireless security blackpaper Message-ID: <20020725105240.C13618@real-time.com> this looks like a *really* good introduction to wireless security. anyone have comments/criticisms about it? http://arstechnica.com/paedia/w/wireless/security-1.html Carl Soderstrom. -- Network Engineer Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From sulrich at botwerks.org Mon Aug 5 12:49:04 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] wireless security blackpaper In-Reply-To: <20020725105240.C13618@real-time.com> References: <20020725105240.C13618@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020805182716.GB80876@botwerks.org> actually i ran across this paper a little while back (well taking into consideration the time warp) and i was actually quite impressed with it. it's pretty objective and quite accurate factually. it's not too deep but does touch on some of the elements which people might want a little more info on. (comparisons of leap, wep keys, etc.) i recommend it - although it did come from a pc magazine. ;-) when last we saw our hero (Thursday, Jul 25, 2002), Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom was madly tapping out: > this looks like a *really* good introduction to wireless security. > anyone have comments/criticisms about it? > > http://arstechnica.com/paedia/w/wireless/security-1.html > -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From sulrich at botwerks.org Mon Aug 5 19:28:33 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] misc. administravia ... mostly ORA in nature Message-ID: <20020806004946.GA84936@botwerks.org> all- there are a few items of administravia that i would be remiss in not addressing. these are mostly oreilly and associates administravia in nature ... so without further ado ... attached are (3) emails from oreilly and associates regarding items of varying interest to the parties in this user group. i'll attempt to get these out to the group as i get them. as many of you will note not all of this (in fact little of it) is regarding wireless technology. still there are some good geeky nuggets in there. of tangential interest is a drawing to be held to allow a winning member a chance at winning a trip to the mac os x conference in santa clara, ca on sept 30 - oct 3, 2002. we're supposed to hold a drawing at our next meeting to determine who our candidate contestant will be. as the user group coordinator i will then submit the winners name for the final drawing. here's the skinny regarding the prize... The winning pass* includes: -Access to all conference sessions October 1-3 including keynotes* -Admission to Exhibit Hall -Admission to all on-site evening events -All conference handouts (excluding tutorial materials) -Three breakfasts and three lunches *Pass does not include tutorial fees, lodging, and transportation. the deadline for submissions is august 7, 2002. so getting this squared away tomorrow will be sneaking it in just under the wire. for those of you who won't be able to join us tomorrow ... first off shame on you, if you want your name to be added to the drawing drop me an email and i'll make sure that you have an entry in the hat. below are the details regarding the drawing from oreilly ans associates. legalese to follow - if you're not cool with these rules you might want to refrain from dropping your name in the hat. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- THESE RULES CONSTITUTE THE OFFICIAL RULES OF THIS RAFFLE. BY PARTICIPATING IN THE RAFFLE, ENTRANTS AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE OFFICIAL RULES AND THE DECISION OF THE JUDGES, WHICH ARE FINAL AND BINDING IN ALL RESPECTS. 1. Entry: No purchase is necessary to enter the raffle. To enter the raffle, Please email Marsee Henon at marsee@oreilly.com and tell her to enter your group for the raffle. Entries must be received at O'Reilly & Associates by August 9, 2002. Limit one entry per group, per email address. O'Reilly & Associates and its agents are not responsible for lost, late, misdirected, incomplete, illegible or damaged email that results from any source. By entering, entrant agrees to abide by and be bound by the Official Rules. O'Reilly & Associates reserves the right to cancel the raffle if it becomes technically corrupted. 2. Eligibility: The O'Reilly Raffle is open to all who are 18 years of age or older, and reside in the U.S. or Canada, except employees of O'Reilly & Associates. Anyone else directly involved in this raffle is ineligible to participate. Raffle void where prohibited by law. All federal, state, and local laws apply. 3. Selection and Notification: The winners will be chosen at random from all eligible entries submitted by August 7, 2002. O'Reilly will notify winners by email or phone. A prize not claimed by September 30 will not be awarded. The odds of winning depend on the number of eligible entries received. 4. Other Rules: a) The prize is nontransferable and non-endorsable; no cash or other substitutions will be offered. All federal, state, and local taxes and delivery charges are the sole responsibility of the winner. b) The winner consents to the use of his/her name and/or likeness for publicity, advertising, and commercial purposes, in perpetuity, without further compensation unless prohibited by law. O'Reilly & Associates and its agents are not responsible for lost entries, or for and availability of information or for Internet, for whatever reason. Entries will be disqualified if O'Reilly & Associates determines, at its sole discretion, that entrants have attempted to circumvent the terms and conditions of these rules. All decisions by O'Reilly & Associates are final. c) By participating in this raffle, entrants agree to release and hold O'Reilly & Associates (and their employees, agents, representatives, or affiliated companies) harmless from any and all losses, damages, rights, claims, and actions of any kind in connection with the prize, including, without limitation, personal injuries, death or property damage, and claims based on publicity rights, defamation, or invasion of privacy. d) Entrant also agrees that in no event shall O'Reilly & Associates or its agents be liable to entrant or any other person for any damage, injuries or losses arising out of the introduction of any virus, bug or software malfunction resulting from participation in this raffle, or for any damage, injuries or losses arising in connection with the prize. e) O'Reilly & Associates reserves the right to modify the rules of the raffle in any way or at any time, as long as reasonable notice is given. f) To receive the name of the winner, or a copy of the Official Rules, send a self-addressed, stamped envelope to: O'Reilly Open Source Convention UG Raffle, c/o O'Reilly & Associates, 1005 Gravenstein Highway North, Sebastopol, CA 95472, Attn: Marsee Henon, Post-marked prior to the close of the raffle (August 7, 2002). -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Marsee Henon Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, July 12 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Size: 12373 Url: http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020805/557f740c/attachment.mht -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Marsee Henon Subject: Newsletter from the O'Reilly UG Program, July 19 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 20:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Size: 11382 Url: http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020805/557f740c/attachment-0001.mht -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Marsee Henon Subject: Newsletter from O'Reilly UG Program, August 5 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Size: 10359 Url: http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020805/557f740c/attachment-0002.mht From poptix at techmonkeys.org Mon Aug 5 21:06:06 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005 Subject: QoS, accounting, authentication - Was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes? In-Reply-To: ; from jeffr@odeon.net on Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 10:20:53AM -0500 References: <20020725145500.GC93374@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: <20020805214058.F5338@techmonkeys.org> On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 10:20:53AM -0500, jeffr@odeon.net wrote: > [snip good content, see summary] > Basic connectivity to the wireless network should be fairly simple for Joe > User. Plug in a wireless nic, configure for DHCP, and you're on the > network. You can't get out to the internet at this point, but you can > access any services being provided on the wireless network. A community > intranet of sorts perhaps. If the user wants to get out to the internet > then they either need to figure out how to correctly set up their home > network (and be providing an access point on the wireless network) or they > need to purchase a gateway service from an ISP. If they are doing it on > there own they could get help from this mailing list, or perhaps the TCLUG > mailing list if they are using linux for their firewall. If they are > purchasing a service from an ISP, then they can call the ISP for technical > support. > > Jeff Excellent, this is exactly what I've been thinking. -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From austad at marketwatch.com Mon Aug 5 21:15:12 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Doppler on what? Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0088881E7@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> > Jay originally mentioned/implied voice having doppler was the > concern, not the RF carrier and subcarrier concerns. He > clarified later that it might be a channel spacing or similar > concern: this is much more likely. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was voice. I was talking RF on that post. Jay From shad at wnoc.com Mon Aug 5 22:18:30 2002 From: shad at wnoc.com (Jay Wineinger) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] AP suggestions References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA007257334@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <002a01c23b0b$1c68bb60$0101a8c0@cascade> Message-ID: <00e301c23cfd$912ad110$0201a8c0@shadowlappy> I think you guys are talking about the DLink DWL-900AP+. So is the 22Mb a proprietary thing, or will other manufacturers (lucent perhaps) come out with a compatable pcmcia card? Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas T. Veldhouse" To: Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [TCWUG] AP suggestions > I know somebody who bought that and the same hardware claims a 20% increase. > 22Mbps is more like 100%. In either case, they claim that they don't think > they are even getting 11Mbps, so I wouldn't bother (for that reason anyway). > > Tom Veldhouse > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Austad, Jay" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 10:43 AM > Subject: RE: [TCWUG] AP suggestions > > > > Dlink has a new one out which is supposedly the best one on the market. > > It's $130 at MicroCenter. $102 online. > > http://192.216.185.10/mwave/doc2/659135.html > > > > It has Dlink's turbo technology too, so if you use a Dlink turbo card with > > it, you get 22Mbps instead of 11Mbps. > > > > Jay > > From chrome at real-time.com Mon Aug 5 22:35:15 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005 Subject: QoS, accounting, authentication - Was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes? In-Reply-To: <20020805214058.F5338@techmonkeys.org>; from poptix@techmonkeys.org on Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 09:40:58PM -0500 References: <20020725145500.GC93374@Geeks.ORG> <20020805214058.F5338@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <20020805231656.B1219@real-time.com> On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 09:40:58PM -0500, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote: > On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 10:20:53AM -0500, jeffr@odeon.net wrote: > > > > [snip good content, see summary] > > > Basic connectivity to the wireless network should be fairly simple for Joe > > User. Plug in a wireless nic, configure for DHCP, and you're on the > > network. You can't get out to the internet at this point, but you can > > access any services being provided on the wireless network. A community > > intranet of sorts perhaps. If the user wants to get out to the internet > > then they either need to figure out how to correctly set up their home > > network (and be providing an access point on the wireless network) or they > > need to purchase a gateway service from an ISP. If they are doing it on > > there own they could get help from this mailing list, or perhaps the TCLUG > > mailing list if they are using linux for their firewall. If they are > > purchasing a service from an ISP, then they can call the ISP for technical > > support. > > > > Jeff > > Excellent, this is exactly what I've been thinking. I've pretty much had the same thought as well, since the first meeting. the time you have to worry about authentication and traffic accounting, is if someone from across the wireless network, wants to use your system as a gateway to the Internet. (i.e. as an ISP) those who want to provide such a service, can probably be bothered to learn how to set up NoCatAuth, or some workalike for win32/netscreen/whatever. the gray area are those people who are willing to serve as relays on the wireless network; but not necessarily as gateways to the Internet. I think they'll have to decide for themselves whether they want to authenticate/account their traffic or not. Carl Soderstrom. -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From sulrich at botwerks.org Mon Aug 5 23:26:56 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005 Subject: QoS, accounting, authentication - Was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes? In-Reply-To: <20020805214058.F5338@techmonkeys.org> References: <20020725145500.GC93374@Geeks.ORG> <20020805214058.F5338@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <20020805233033.A13947@botwerks.org> this is essentially what i've been doing with my access point and it works quite nicely. i have placed my AP within the DMZ on my network, i don't allow any tcp or udp traffic out of the network unless it's on port 22 (ssh). all http traffic is transparently proxied to a web server which is running on that segment and informs the user that they cannot use this AP unless they have a tunneling mechanism in place. by not allowing any tcp traffic outside of this segment (excepting ssh traffic) and not allowing anything other than protocol 47/50/51/120 traffic outside of the network you effectively make the segment useless for anyone who isn't tunneling through to the internet via an access concentrator at their ISP (or their corporate network). this model can be extended to allow selectively opening up the network to folks using techniques like nocatauth or for the adventurous with hardware to burn pppoe or something else. (hark - ipsec access for wug members?) for nodes where there are links to other locations within the WUG network (wireless ptp links) traffic can be tunneled appropriately to the other location and the remainder of the network. this is a very simple, stable and straightforward technique that we can create cookie-cutter implementations of like we were discussing at our 2nd meeting. jeff - you're not missing out on anything, the problem domain has just been obfuscated. ;-) when last we saw our hero (Monday, Aug 05, 2002), Matthew S. Hallacy was madly tapping out: > On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 10:20:53AM -0500, jeffr@odeon.net wrote: > > > > [snip good content, see summary] > > > Basic connectivity to the wireless network should be fairly simple > > for Joe User. Plug in a wireless nic, configure for DHCP, and > > you're on the network. You can't get out to the internet at this > > point, but you can access any services being provided on the > > wireless network. A community intranet of sorts perhaps. If the > > user wants to get out to the internet then they either need to > > figure out how to correctly set up their home network (and be > > providing an access point on the wireless network) or they need to > > purchase a gateway service from an ISP. If they are doing it on > > there own they could get help from this mailing list, or perhaps > > the TCLUG mailing list if they are using linux for their firewall. > > If they are purchasing a service from an ISP, then they can call > > the ISP for technical support. > > > > Jeff > > Excellent, this is exactly what I've been thinking. > > -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From bryan at edgar.sector14.net Tue Aug 6 00:49:56 2002 From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005 Subject: QoS, accounting, authentication - Was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes? In-Reply-To: <20020805231656.B1219@real-time.com> from "Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom" at Aug 05, 2002 11:17:01 PM Message-ID: <200208060627.g766Rjl14931@twenty.sector14.net> Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > > > the gray area are those people who are willing to serve as relays on the > wireless network; but not necessarily as gateways to the Internet. I think > they'll have to decide for themselves whether they want to > authenticate/account their traffic or not. I'm willing to serve as a relay point. I'm on a ridge on the north side of Apple Valley and have an 80 foot tower for my Ham Radio antennas. I already have a 2.4 gig omni antenna up and am planning a point-to-point link to the south side of Lakeville to a friend with a 120 foot tower. I don't have a computer put together to run it yet but I haven't been in a hurry so far. We could put three or more of the big Andrew 24 db gain antennas on my tower without any problems. From mail at RobWentworth.com Tue Aug 6 02:07:53 2002 From: mail at RobWentworth.com (Rob Wentworth) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: mobile IP for 802.11b (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?) References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0088881FE@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: An interesting article on using VPN for mobile IP with 802.11b, etc.: http://www.embedded.com/story/OEG20010628S0054 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Austad, Jay" To: Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:17 AM Subject: RE: service offerings (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?) > > > BGP is typically used as an external routing protocol. The only > > > reason you would want to run BGP internally is if you have a large > > > network with internet connections all over in different > > places, then > > > you could propagate your BGP tables internally and traffic would > > > always leave the network at the best internet connection > > for the network you are trying to reach. > > > > you know, that does actually sound like what we're > > trying to do. :) (at least as I see it). > > Yeah, but the problem here is that you are unlikely to convince your ISP to > give you a BGP session over your DSL or cable modem. So running BGP on your > internal network will do you no good if you can't get tables from the > outside world. We'd need to get a bunch of T1's for this to work. Also, > we'd need to get routers which could actually run BGP without pegging the > CPU, and lots of memory or we'll have to summarize the tables quite a bit. > Zebra supports BGP, but in my experience, Zebra is flaky. I haven't used > BGP with it, but with OSPF and RIP, it has problems. > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > From poptix at techmonkeys.org Tue Aug 6 02:42:24 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: QoS, accounting, authentication - Was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes? In-Reply-To: <200208060627.g766Rjl14931@twenty.sector14.net>; from bryan@edgar.sector14.net on Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 01:27:45AM -0500 References: <20020805231656.B1219@real-time.com> <200208060627.g766Rjl14931@twenty.sector14.net> Message-ID: <20020806031246.G5338@techmonkeys.org> On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 01:27:45AM -0500, Bryan Halvorson wrote: > I'm willing to serve as a relay point. I'm on a ridge on the north > side of Apple Valley and have an 80 foot tower for my Ham Radio > antennas. I already have a 2.4 gig omni antenna up and am planning a > point-to-point link to the south side of Lakeville to a friend with a > 120 foot tower. I don't have a computer put together to run it yet but > I haven't been in a hurry so far. We could put three or more of the big > Andrew 24 db gain antennas on my tower without any problems. > *perk!* Apple Valley you say? Got some GPS coordinates so I can see just how far from me you are? I've got access to a tall-ish hill that can see south pretty well in IGH. You might want to take a look at http://maps.tcwug.org, e-mail me a password and I can add you right away. > >From up on my tower I have line of sight to a large portion of the > cities including both downtowns. > > -- > Bryan Halvorson > bryan@edgar.sector14.net -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From sulrich at botwerks.org Tue Aug 6 14:29:13 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: service offerings (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?) In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888210@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888210@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <20020726205837.GA72214@botwerks.org> when last we saw our hero (Friday, Jul 26, 2002), Austad, Jay was madly tapping out: > > > I haven't used BGP with it, but with OSPF and RIP, it has > > > problems. > > well, it's open source, we know what to do. :) buying Cisco > > gear (even used) would probably put the whole affair out of > > the price range of anything but a commercial enterprise. > > Yeah, well there are plenty of other manufacturers out there that > make comparable routers at 1/3 the price of Cisco. Don't get me > wrong, I think they make a decent product, but it's way overpriced, > even with a fat discount. actually - i've been liking zebra a lot lately. i've been quite impressed with the quality of the BGP and OSPF implementations, and i've got access to routers with really good implementations of both routing prototols. > > personally, I"m in favor of the "90% solution". knowing that > > the last 10% of performance (speed, reliability, whatever) > > often costs 10x as much, I'm in favor of building something as > > cheaply as reasonable (not necessarily as cheaply as > > possible), that can be grown with better equipment as it > > becomes available. first let's make it work, then let's make > > it work well. :) > > Awww yeah, linux and BSD routers. :) running a routing protocol on the gateway for the locations is a very workable solution and likely the most cost effective given that these will more likely than not be cheap unix boxen. the real issue for this deployment is the ability to reach one location from another. do we have any realistic deployment locations for p2p links? -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From drechsau at geeks.org Tue Aug 6 20:32:21 2002 From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] monthly mtg. reminder (08/06/2002) In-Reply-To: <20020804231349.A12629@botwerks.org> References: <20020804231349.A12629@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020807020801.GB32209@Geeks.ORG> On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 11:13:49PM -0500, steve ulrich wrote: > just a reminder and open invitation to folks interested in wireless > networking technology. the monthly meeting of the twin cities > wireless users group is scheduled for this coming tuesday (august 6, > 2002). FOOOK! I forgot all about this today :( SHEEIT! Hope everyone had fun. -- Mike Horwath IRC: Drechsau drechsau@Geeks.ORG Home: 763-540-6815 1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN 55427 Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period. From drechsau at geeks.org Tue Aug 6 20:32:30 2002 From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: list server timewarp - was (Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?) In-Reply-To: <20020804200146.B11657@botwerks.org> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0088880F2@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020722181542.E805@real-time.com> <20020723045219.GF64770@Geeks.ORG> <20020723114947.GA35720@botwerks.org> <20020723095718.G805@real-time.com> <20020723154520.GB37753@botwerks.org> <20020804200146.B11657@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020807020933.GC32209@Geeks.ORG> On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 08:01:46PM -0500, steve ulrich wrote: > not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but i've been running into > problems with the mail server for this list. this message and > another batch of messages from the tclug mailing from 7/24 made it > into my mailbox this AM. i lobbed a message to postmaster@tcwug.org > a few days back and haven't received any response. is all well with > the server? I have offered hardware and colocation for the list as well :( -- Mike Horwath IRC: Drechsau drechsau@Geeks.ORG Home: 763-540-6815 1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN 55427 Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period. From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Tue Aug 6 21:38:24 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Microwave propagation and rain Message-ID: <3D509224.6A981553@nkras.dsl.visi.com> I found the following passage from one of my engineering reference books concerning microwave propagation: "Effects of rain attenuation are considered negligible on frequencies below 7000 Mhz. The susceptance of signals above 10,000 Mhz to absorption and scattering by rainfall sometimes limits their application to short path distances. This factor merits close attention in those regions noted for heavy rainfall and, in general, when a high level of reliability is necessary for transmission-line protective relaying, remote supervisory control, and similar critical applications." (Standard Handbook for Electrical Engineers, 11th Ed. Fink and Beatty, pp. 16-99 to 16-100, F.R. Nelson, section author) The above, as noted, is in the context of protective relaying for power systems requiring at least a 99.99% reliability: that's at least a 40db fade margin. These links are in operational fixed service. A street wireless network, however, will find it's place in the land mobile model. The environment surrounding the laptop will present attenuation due to foliage and structures, multipath, and destructive fading. Fade margins to achieve an acceptable level of service will have to approach that of 40 db, else the loss of packets may be intolerable, and render the AP useless at greater than very localized distances. Achieving talk distances greater than a few hundred feet may be problematic in an environment of concrete, steel, and trees at microwave frequencies with power levels of 30 mW. It is my opinion that precipitation should still be considered in calculating propagation reliability for both major nodes (operational fixed, i.e. Tower to Walker) and street downlinks (AP to mobile, i.e. Walker to Loring Park laptop). With some of the downpours and electromagnetic disturbances in the Cities, I would rule out the effects of these conditions. IIRC, I read a propaganda sheet from a manufacturer of ACSB (Amplitude Compandered Sideband) equipment that noted of the failure of an 800 Mhz (trunked?) system due to rainfall in Florida. Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com From poptix at techmonkeys.org Tue Aug 6 22:12:02 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Microwave propagation and rain In-Reply-To: <3D509224.6A981553@nkras.dsl.visi.com>; from nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com on Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 10:21:18PM -0500 References: <3D509224.6A981553@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Message-ID: <20020806224742.K5338@techmonkeys.org> On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 10:21:18PM -0500, Neal wrote: > It is my opinion that precipitation should still be considered in > calculating propagation reliability for both major nodes (operational > fixed, i.e. Tower to Walker) and street downlinks (AP to mobile, i.e. > Walker to Loring Park laptop). With some of the downpours and > electromagnetic disturbances in the Cities, I would rule out the > effects of these conditions. > I never had problems with rain even on the 20-something mile links, snow wasn't a problem either. Fog, now that caused problems =) Not saying it isn't possible, but the biggest concern was the wind from the storm tearing apart the zip ties holding the antennas up =) The links should be setup so that a bird taking a dump on the feed horn doesn't cause problems.. > Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Tue Aug 6 22:45:33 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Microwave propagation and rain References: <3D509224.6A981553@nkras.dsl.visi.com> <20020806224742.K5338@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <3D50A147.38942BB8@nkras.dsl.visi.com> "Matthew S. Hallacy" wrote: > On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 10:21:18PM -0500, Neal wrote: > > > It is my opinion that precipitation should still be considered in > > calculating propagation reliability for both major nodes (operational > > fixed, i.e. Tower to Walker) and street downlinks (AP to mobile, i.e. > > Walker to Loring Park laptop). With some of the downpours and > > electromagnetic disturbances in the Cities, I would rule out the > > effects of these conditions. > > > > I never had problems with rain even on the 20-something mile links, snow > wasn't a problem either. Fog, now that caused problems =) Not saying it > isn't possible, but the biggest concern was the wind from the storm tearing > apart the zip ties holding the antennas up =) It all depends on the length of the circuit, transmit power, receiver sensitivity, obstructions, etc. If your link was a generally clear radio line of sight, then all else being equal, it would've talked. Fog appears to be opague at 2.4 Ghz. That's going to be a problem. Parabolics will have a definite advantage over yagis and corner reflectors, IMHO. > The links should be setup so that a bird taking a dump on the > feed horn doesn't cause problems.. Loss(guano)= -10db. :-) There's still that loss between the local AP and the laptop. Even with a mobile antenna gain of 5db, coffee tables make ground planes. That 5db may just bring the effective gain of the laptop antenna to unity. From bryan at edgar.sector14.net Tue Aug 6 23:26:42 2002 From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Microwave propagation and rain In-Reply-To: <3D509224.6A981553@nkras.dsl.visi.com> from "Neal" at Aug 06, 2002 10:21:18 PM Message-ID: <200208070503.g7753Vl17778@twenty.sector14.net> Neal wrote: > > > It is my opinion that precipitation should still be considered in > calculating propagation reliability for both major nodes (operational > fixed, i.e. Tower to Walker) and street downlinks (AP to mobile, i.e. > Walker to Loring Park laptop). With some of the downpours and > electromagnetic disturbances in the Cities, I would rule out the > effects of these conditions. I agree that it should be considered. I've seen the 2 gig studio to transmitter links for some of the local TV stations and the 5 gig satellite dish to IDS link for the local MDS company fade during hard rains but we don't have the option of using large fade margins like 40 db. We just don't have that much transmitter power to play with and 24 db is the largest common antenna size I've seen. With 30 mw transmitters and 24 db antennas a 10 mile link only has about 10 db of fade margin. Plus this isn't taking into consideration interference and the higher noise floor that we're going to be seeing as the band gets more crowded. I've heard enough people say that 10 mile links are doable that I think it should work. I think we'll just have to get something up and running and see what the error rate ends up being. If it ends up being a problem we can start looking for more antenna gain or add amplifiers. > > IIRC, I read a propaganda sheet from a manufacturer of ACSB (Amplitude > Compandered Sideband) equipment that noted of the failure of an 800 Mhz > (trunked?) system due to rainfall in Florida. > > Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > -- Bryan Halvorson bryan@edgar.sector14.net From poptix at techmonkeys.org Wed Aug 7 01:16:04 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Microwave propagation and rain In-Reply-To: <200208070503.g7753Vl17778@twenty.sector14.net>; from bryan@edgar.sector14.net on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 12:03:31AM -0500 References: <3D509224.6A981553@nkras.dsl.visi.com> <200208070503.g7753Vl17778@twenty.sector14.net> Message-ID: <20020807011656.N5338@techmonkeys.org> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 12:03:31AM -0500, Bryan Halvorson wrote: > With 30 mw transmitters and 24 db antennas a 10 mile link only has > about 10 db of fade margin. Plus this isn't taking into consideration > interference and the higher noise floor that we're going to be seeing > as the band gets more crowded. I've heard enough people say that 10 > mile links are doable that I think it should work. I think we'll just > have to get something up and running and see what the error rate ends up > being. If it ends up being a problem we can start looking for more > antenna gain or add amplifiers. I wouldn't be confortable using 30mw units for this, most likely we'd be using 100mw or 200mw radios. > > > -- > Bryan Halvorson > bryan@edgar.sector14.net > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From poptix at techmonkeys.org Wed Aug 7 02:35:22 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] recieve sensitivity page Message-ID: <20020807031308.O5338@techmonkeys.org> A few people were looking for recieve sensitivity on the wireless cards, here's a table: http://www.freenetworks.org/moin/index.cgi/ReceiveSensitivity don't consider it to be 100% accurate.. -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From bryan at edgar.sector14.net Wed Aug 7 02:52:34 2002 From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Microwave propagation and rain In-Reply-To: <20020807011656.N5338@techmonkeys.org> from "Matthew S. Hallacy" at Aug 07, 2002 01:16:56 AM Message-ID: <200208070837.g778bTx18623@twenty.sector14.net> Matthew S. Hallacy wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 12:03:31AM -0500, Bryan Halvorson wrote: > > > With 30 mw transmitters and 24 db antennas a 10 mile link only has > > about 10 db of fade margin. Plus this isn't taking into consideration > > interference and the higher noise floor that we're going to be seeing > > as the band gets more crowded. I've heard enough people say that 10 > > mile links are doable that I think it should work. I think we'll just > > have to get something up and running and see what the error rate ends up > > being. If it ends up being a problem we can start looking for more > > antenna gain or add amplifiers. > > I wouldn't be confortable using 30mw units for this, most likely we'd be > using 100mw or 200mw radios. Going from 30 mw to 100 mw isn't really that big of a change. It's only a 5 db increase on power. Going from 30 to 200 mw is 8 db. If possible it's usually better to increase the antenna gain or decrease the feedline loss. Both of these add to both the transmit and receive signal level and narrowing the antenna pattern with a higher gain antenna can also decrease interference. I'm not trying to say that increasing the transmitter power is the wrong answer, just that you need to look at the whole transmitter and antenna system to see where changes will be the most effective. With the small signal levels we're forced to work with here every db of signal is important. -- Bryan Halvorson bryan@edgar.sector14.net From dante at plethora.net Wed Aug 7 09:34:25 2002 From: dante at plethora.net (Dan Taylor) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: list server timewarp - was (Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?) In-Reply-To: <20020807020933.GC32209@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Mike Horwath wrote: > On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 08:01:46PM -0500, steve ulrich wrote: > > not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but i've been running into > > problems with the mail server for this list. this message and > > another batch of messages from the tclug mailing from 7/24 made it > > into my mailbox this AM. i lobbed a message to postmaster@tcwug.org > > a few days back and haven't received any response. is all well with > > the server? > > I have offered hardware and colocation for the list as well :( > I can't think of a better hosting site for it. -- Daniel Taylor From austad at marketwatch.com Wed Aug 7 09:37:31 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] antenna gurus? Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888323@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> A few companies out there make "Passive Repeater" antennas, where you put the antenna outside your building connected to one inside, an it relay's cellular signals in and out for places with bad reception. How would I build one of these? I bought one which was supposed to work with GSM 1900, and it doesn't do a damn thing. As far as I can tell, it's an antenna mounted to a cheap plastic base and that's it. Other ones I've seen have a metal pad on the base and you stick one on each side of a window, but mine doesn't have this. Maybe that's why it was so cheap. Jay From cncole at earthlink.net Wed Aug 7 10:11:21 2002 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] antenna gurus? In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888323@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <000701c23e2b$344f6710$9394fea9@HPZT> I think you are describing a thing sold to boost signal in/out of cars. Those I've seen use capacitive coupling to the inside, which has a dipole (two wires inline with the plastic in the middle.. about 12" tip-to-tip for the inside). You may have one where the inside antenna wires are lost or just not inserted yet. Anybody got the antenna formulae (yagi, dipole, patch, etc) for 1900-2500 Mhz range that has "end effects" and propagation velocity compensated? --- Chuck > -----Original Message----- > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On > Behalf Of Austad, Jay > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:13 AM > To: 'tcwug-list@tcwug.org' > Subject: [TCWUG] antenna gurus? > > > A few companies out there make "Passive Repeater" antennas, > where you put > the antenna outside your building connected to one inside, an > it relay's > cellular signals in and out for places with bad reception. > > How would I build one of these? I bought one which was > supposed to work > with GSM 1900, and it doesn't do a damn thing. As far as I > can tell, it's > an antenna mounted to a cheap plastic base and that's it. > Other ones I've > seen have a metal pad on the base and you stick one on each side of a > window, but mine doesn't have this. Maybe that's why it was so cheap. > > Jay > _______________________________________________ From bryan at edgar.sector14.net Wed Aug 7 15:34:40 2002 From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] antenna gurus? In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888323@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> from "Austad, Jay" at Aug 07, 2002 10:13:20 AM Message-ID: <200208072100.g77L0Hv20292@twenty.sector14.net> Austad, Jay wrote: > > A few companies out there make "Passive Repeater" antennas, where you put > the antenna outside your building connected to one inside, an it relay's > cellular signals in and out for places with bad reception. > > How would I build one of these? I bought one which was supposed to work > with GSM 1900, and it doesn't do a damn thing. As far as I can tell, it's > an antenna mounted to a cheap plastic base and that's it. Other ones I've > seen have a metal pad on the base and you stick one on each side of a > window, but mine doesn't have this. Maybe that's why it was so cheap. All a passive repeater really is is two antennas that are connected together. They tend to work best when you have a situation where you have a fairly strong signal and then have a nearby area where the signal is blocked for some reason. You put up an antenna where it can catch the strong signal and connect it via coax to another antenna that can resend the signal into the blocked area. One example of this is the big flat panels mounted at an angle on the smoke stacks at the power plants around town. They have microwave dishs on the ground pointed at the panels to bounce signals off of them. -- Bryan Halvorson bryan@edgar.sector14.net From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Wed Aug 7 18:13:26 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Site information Message-ID: <3D51B30E.59135692@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Does anyone have site information for the Tower and Walker Arts Museum, including: 1. Geographic coordinates; 2. Street address; and 3. Building height in feet (ground to roof, or at point of antenna attachment). I'll start calculating propagation estimates as soon as I get the above information, topo maps, and batteries for my HP25C. :-) I'll concentrate my estimates on the operational fixed sites first, since that will supply the backbone for all other APs. After the initial path plot, I'll have to gather actual path obstruction information between the two sites. Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com From andyw at pobox.com Wed Aug 7 21:36:03 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] antenna gurus? In-Reply-To: <200208072100.g77L0Hv20292@twenty.sector14.net>; from bryan@edgar.sector14.net on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 04:00:16PM -0500 References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888323@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <200208072100.g77L0Hv20292@twenty.sector14.net> Message-ID: <20020807222446.A6023@florence.linkmargin.com> Bryan Halvorson wrote: > [...] > All a passive repeater really is is two antennas that are connected > together. They tend to work best when you have a situation where you > have a fairly strong signal and then have a nearby area where the signal > is blocked for some reason. You put up an antenna where it can catch the > strong signal and connect it via coax to another antenna that can > resend the signal into the blocked area. Attached is a photo of one such installation on top of one of the new target buildings that got in the way of some microwave link heading out west from the WCCO studios downtown. The downtilted (left) antenna points toward the studio, the right antenna points out to the West. I've meant to email WCCO's engineers to find out the story before I posted the picture here, but I never got around to it. > One example of this is the big flat panels mounted at an angle on the > smoke stacks at the power plants around town. They have microwave dishs > on the ground pointed at the panels to bounce signals off of them. Those are planar reflectors, and actually realise gain - I think it's a stretch to call them passive repeaters; though they are undeniably passive & do repeat things. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: passive_repeater.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 138490 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020807/6c20df9c/passive_repeater.jpg From sulrich at botwerks.org Wed Aug 7 22:47:41 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] raffle entry ... Message-ID: <20020807233223.A16928@botwerks.org> all- our submission for the mac os x drawing with oreilly and associates in mr. matthew genelin. best of luck to mr. genelin in the final drawing for the mac os x conference. for those of you interested in the logistics of picking the winner, i grepped my tcwug mailbox for from: entries from the past few months the output was then munged as follows... egrep -ih '^from: ' * > ~/foo grep -v sulrich foo > bar ; mv bar foo perl -pi.bak -e 's/from: //' foo perl -pi.bak -e 's/\"//g' foo perl -pi.bak -e 'tr/A-Z/a-z/' foo sort foo | uniq > bar ; mv bar foo ./rand-pick.pl foo rand-pick.pl is attached for those of you curious as to the technique used to select a random name. i realize that this doesn't remove all duplicates and would tend to reward those that post from a variety of addresses but i figure what the heck reward those folks that post frequently with slightly better odds. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rand-pick.pl Type: application/x-perl Size: 396 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020807/e5436c22/rand-pick.bin From poptix at techmonkeys.org Wed Aug 7 22:48:08 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Site information In-Reply-To: <3D51B30E.59135692@nkras.dsl.visi.com>; from nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:54:06PM -0500 References: <3D51B30E.59135692@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Message-ID: <20020807234037.A24439@techmonkeys.org> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:54:06PM -0500, Neal wrote: > > Does anyone have site information for the Tower and Walker Arts Museum, > including: > > 1. Geographic coordinates; 44.9690001 -93.288544 > 2. Street address; and Walker Art Center Vineland Place Minneapolis, MN 55403 > 3. Building height in feet (ground to roof, or at point of antenna > attachment). Can't find it, you might try calling them. > > I'll start calculating propagation estimates as soon as I get the above > information, topo maps, and batteries for my HP25C. :-) > > I'll concentrate my estimates on the operational fixed sites first, > since that will supply the backbone for all other APs. After the initial > > path plot, I'll have to gather actual path obstruction information > between the two sites. > > Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From nryberg at mendota-bridge.com Thu Aug 8 08:17:25 2002 From: nryberg at mendota-bridge.com (Nick Ryberg) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Site information In-Reply-To: <20020807234037.A24439@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: Are you folks just looking at connecting the two? The Walker is at the base of the hill leading up Hennepin from the Basilica towards the peak at Franklin. Wouldn't something up there work better? or is the Walker 'available'? -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On Behalf Of Matthew S. Hallacy Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:41 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Site information On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:54:06PM -0500, Neal wrote: > > Does anyone have site information for the Tower and Walker Arts Museum, > including: > > 1. Geographic coordinates; 44.9690001 -93.288544 > 2. Street address; and Walker Art Center Vineland Place Minneapolis, MN 55403 > 3. Building height in feet (ground to roof, or at point of antenna > attachment). Can't find it, you might try calling them. > > I'll start calculating propagation estimates as soon as I get the above > information, topo maps, and batteries for my HP25C. :-) > > I'll concentrate my estimates on the operational fixed sites first, > since that will supply the backbone for all other APs. After the initial > > path plot, I'll have to gather actual path obstruction information > between the two sites. > > Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From andyw at pobox.com Thu Aug 8 09:57:57 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Site information In-Reply-To: ; from nryberg@mendota-bridge.com on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 08:56:29AM -0500 References: <20020807234037.A24439@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <20020808092708.A7391@florence.linkmargin.com> Nick Ryberg wrote: > Are you folks just looking at connecting the two? The Walker is at the base > of the hill leading up Hennepin from the Basilica towards the peak at > Franklin. Wouldn't something up there work better? or is the Walker I was thinking the same thing. What about the community and technical college - that sounds like fertile ground to me. http://www.mctc.mnscu.edu/indexMain.htm -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From nryberg at mendota-bridge.com Thu Aug 8 09:58:06 2002 From: nryberg at mendota-bridge.com (Nick Ryberg) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Site information In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just as an FYI, www.topozone.com provides maps of areas, and once you puzzle out the user interface, you can get a moderately good picture of an area. For the Walker, see: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=15&n=4979309&e=477175&s=25&size=m - Nick -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On Behalf Of Nick Ryberg Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:56 AM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: RE: [TCWUG] Site information Are you folks just looking at connecting the two? The Walker is at the base of the hill leading up Hennepin from the Basilica towards the peak at Franklin. Wouldn't something up there work better? or is the Walker 'available'? -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On Behalf Of Matthew S. Hallacy Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:41 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Site information On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:54:06PM -0500, Neal wrote: > > Does anyone have site information for the Tower and Walker Arts Museum, > including: > > 1. Geographic coordinates; 44.9690001 -93.288544 > 2. Street address; and Walker Art Center Vineland Place Minneapolis, MN 55403 > 3. Building height in feet (ground to roof, or at point of antenna > attachment). Can't find it, you might try calling them. > > I'll start calculating propagation estimates as soon as I get the above > information, topo maps, and batteries for my HP25C. :-) > > I'll concentrate my estimates on the operational fixed sites first, > since that will supply the backbone for all other APs. After the initial > > path plot, I'll have to gather actual path obstruction information > between the two sites. > > Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From benmgroup at earthlink.net Thu Aug 8 10:00:07 2002 From: benmgroup at earthlink.net (Ben Nelson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Site information In-Reply-To: <20020807234037.A24439@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: I've come to this thread late, so excuse me if this is redundant, but have you contacted the New Media department at the Walker? They may be interested in participating. Check out: http://www.walkerart.org/generalinfo/contactframe.html I have done some work with them in the past, and wouldn't mind contacting them to explain the project. Contact me off list if that would help. Ben > From: "Matthew S. Hallacy" > Reply-To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:40:37 -0500 > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Site information > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:54:06PM -0500, Neal wrote: >> >> Does anyone have site information for the Tower and Walker Arts Museum, >> including: >> >> 1. Geographic coordinates; > > 44.9690001 -93.288544 > > >> 2. Street address; and > > Walker Art Center > Vineland Place > Minneapolis, MN 55403 > >> 3. Building height in feet (ground to roof, or at point of antenna >> attachment). > > Can't find it, you might try calling them. > >> >> I'll start calculating propagation estimates as soon as I get the above >> information, topo maps, and batteries for my HP25C. :-) >> >> I'll concentrate my estimates on the operational fixed sites first, >> since that will supply the backbone for all other APs. After the initial >> >> path plot, I'll have to gather actual path obstruction information >> between the two sites. >> >> Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com > > -- > Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified > http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, > Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From sulrich at botwerks.org Thu Aug 8 12:21:02 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002) Message-ID: <20020808175455.GA14660@botwerks.org> all- here are the notes from the meeting to the best of my recollection, errors and omissions are quite possible and if i did miss something or get something wrong (my apologies) please let me know and update the group. points of administravia ----------------------- - prior to the meeting i'd sent out some newsletters from oreilly and associates. of note was a drawing, to be entered into a final drawing for a pass to the mac os x conference in santa clara sometime in september. hats were not readily available and we weren't in a position to write names on slips of paper for a drawing out of another recepticle. i offered to cull a list of names from the postings and use a program to slurp a random name from the listing. using this as the submission. lacking any thoughts otherwise i opted to go this route. note: as of this writing our candidate submittee is matthew genelin. - list server discussion - there was some brief discussion regarding the current status of the mailing list server and the duress that it appears to be under. some suggestions to improve the performance of the list server were made and a brief update on the status of the server was given by carl wilhelm soderstrom. note: as of this writing there has been some conversation regarding the status of the server and implementing some performance enhancing tweaks to the operation of the lists. confirmation of whether or not these tweaks would be utilized has not been achieved but the issue can be addressed as necessary. new items --------- 1 - ben kochie and matthew genelin from the university of minnesota have been researching the options available to the group utilizing moos tower at the university of minnesota. the u of m's ham club is shrinking in numbers - graduating away and there is a fair amount of synergy between tcwug and the u amateur radio group. this set off a considerable amount of discussion regarding the use of the potential moos tower node to build out to other locations in a point to point fashion. there are several other locations which may be candidates for connections to this node location. installation of the moos tower node will require doing some tests to determine the feasibility and impact of doing such an installation. a study to determine the range and locations accessible to the moos tower location will be required as well. this will help to determine the optimum antenna type for the location as well as determine potential candidate locations. (see todos at the bottom of these notes) additionally, there was some discussion regarding adding wireless connectivity to the loring area and the establishment of ptp links between some of the south minneapolis nodes. 2 - the moos tower discussion sparked a lively discussion regarding the types of network buildouts that are possible and where we were with the hotspot vs. overlay debate. if i might glibly summarize ... the discussion is pretty much moot. there's a tremendous amount of interest in overlay in much the same fashion as seattle wireless and personaltelco. however, the two models are very complimentary. additionally, the group will want to work to help people setup hotspots and to augment connectivity to accessible hotspots via the overlay network. this sparked a discussion of several different outreach type programs that the group would want to support. those discussed include: (in the spirit of the installfests i've "fested" all of these) - securefest - a primer on basic setup and configuration of WEP on common acess points. - firewallfest - a primer for the setup and configuration of basic firewalls for home networks and wireless access points. - rebelfest - a primer on how to engage in civil disobedience using tunneling protocols to an access concentrator to obviate AUPs. 3 - carl brought up the use of some project tracking software to log the activity that's being given to the different projects and let people know what needs to be done and where help would be needed. 4 - speakers for the next meetings. there's an interest in having some more formalized discussions regarding widely varied topics of relevance to wireless technology. note: as of this writing i've been working with various individuals to come up with a range of topics for discussion at the next few meetings, ranging from wardriving primers, to radio basics and geographic positioning tools. i'll be working to get a list of these sessions put together. if folks are really interested in some of these topics we can see about holding some class type sessions independently of our usual monthly meetings. 5 - usernames for maps.tcwug.org - matthew hallacy has reminded us to please contact him to get your authentication squared away for managing your node entries on the maps.tcwug.org server. this will enable you to control the status of your node w/i the database and limit the visibility of information you're not cool with sharing. ------------------------------------------------------------------- - misc. items referenced during the course of the meeting which - - could very well turn into field trips / projects for interested - - parties or are just neat. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 - a field trip to moos tower to determine physical position and to engage in a study of the coverage that can be achieved by placing a node on moos tower. 2 - project management software (bugzilla / jitterbug / twig) 3 - newbie documentation - creation of recommended hardware lists as tested and approved by local members. how-tos for some of the hotspot setup elements 4 - some notes from curt at the meeting regarding useful tools for mapping and understanding what's going on from a regulatory perspective. fcc part 15.247 http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=47&PART=15&SECTION=247&YEAR=2001&TYPE=TEXT - radio mobile deluxe - http://www.cplus.org/rmw/english1.html - global mapper - http://www.globalmapper.com - ydi page - http://www.ydi.com/calc.php curt has also graciously offered to assist with coverage plots and path studies for the group as time permits. 5 - authentication and sharing - for folks that are interested in setting up hotspots creation of an authentication infrastructure would go a long ways towards helping folks from a cooperative perspective. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From andyw at pobox.com Thu Aug 8 15:14:53 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002) In-Reply-To: <20020808175455.GA14660@botwerks.org>; from sulrich@botwerks.org on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 12:54:55PM -0500 References: <20020808175455.GA14660@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020808155307.A8428@florence.linkmargin.com> steve ulrich wrote: > [...] > 1 - ben kochie and matthew genelin from the university of minnesota > have been researching the options available to the group utilizing > moos tower at the university of minnesota. the u of m's ham club is > [...] > installation of the moos tower node will require doing some tests to > determine the feasibility and impact of doing such an installation. a > study to determine the range and locations accessible to the moos > tower location will be required as well. this will help to determine I'm sorry I missed the meeting. I've installed a data repeater on top of moos tower. I am very familiar with the location. The radio shack is a considerable distance from the antenna location sites. Unless we want to flush lots of dB and $ on feedline, we will need to plan for weatherproof radios, with remote (low voltage) power remotely supplied. It is a good RF location, the coverage of the data repeater I mentioned above was excellent. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From sulrich at botwerks.org Thu Aug 8 15:33:10 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002) In-Reply-To: <20020808155307.A8428@florence.linkmargin.com> References: <20020808175455.GA14660@botwerks.org> <20020808155307.A8428@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020808211426.GB15228@botwerks.org> when last we saw our hero (Thursday, Aug 08, 2002), Andy Warner was madly tapping out: > steve ulrich wrote: > > [...] > > 1 - ben kochie and matthew genelin from the university of minnesota > > have been researching the options available to the group utilizing > > moos tower at the university of minnesota. the u of m's ham club is > > [...] > > installation of the moos tower node will require doing some tests to > > determine the feasibility and impact of doing such an installation. a > > study to determine the range and locations accessible to the moos > > tower location will be required as well. this will help to determine > > I'm sorry I missed the meeting. > I've installed a data repeater on top of moos tower. I am very > familiar with the location. The radio shack is a considerable > distance from the antenna location sites. Unless we want to flush > lots of dB and $ on feedline, we will need to plan for weatherproof > radios, with remote (low voltage) power remotely supplied. It is a > good RF location, the coverage of the data repeater I mentioned > above was excellent. there was some discussion regarding this. it would be nice to know if we're within the bounds of PoE for this application. i'm doing some research to see what APs we'd be able to use for this location that would have low power req'ts whle providing us with some flexibility in the network functionality side of things. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From ben at nerp.net Thu Aug 8 15:58:53 2002 From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002) In-Reply-To: <20020808211426.GB15228@botwerks.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 actualy.. i was just up there this afternoon with matt (yay GPS) here's the coord for the top: (task 1 complete) Moos Tower: 44.58'21.8" 93.13'53.2" elev ~260m Base appears to be 180m, street level.. if that helps We discovered there is a nice little shack on the roof where we can feed coax from. and would not need a weatherproof enclosure. just a small wall mount rack cabinet or similar. from there we can run coax cable to antennas. this should cut down the needed coax to 100 feet or less. (the shack i'm talking about is beneath the datarepeater antenna) - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, steve ulrich wrote: > there was some discussion regarding this. it would be nice to know if > we're within the bounds of PoE for this application. i'm doing some > research to see what APs we'd be able to use for this location that > would have low power req'ts whle providing us with some flexibility in > the network functionality side of things. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9UuRYflzKmtpiQEMRAsq1AJ9p3y3n4iciQHGD9E6NqwVJcq/q3ACgifuw ZFXSVG7SRwlMp3/NcRKRshg= =79WA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From andyw at pobox.com Thu Aug 8 16:22:18 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002) In-Reply-To: <20020808211426.GB15228@botwerks.org>; from sulrich@botwerks.org on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 04:14:26PM -0500 References: <20020808175455.GA14660@botwerks.org> <20020808155307.A8428@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020808211426.GB15228@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020808165600.B8428@florence.linkmargin.com> steve ulrich wrote: > [...] > there was some discussion regarding this. it would be nice to know if > we're within the bounds of PoE for this application. i'm doing some > research to see what APs we'd be able to use for this location that > would have low power req'ts whle providing us with some flexibility in > the network functionality side of things. I believe that we're within PoE range. Certainly within range of pulling an additional 18 gauge pair along with cat 5 if required. If my memory isn't letting me down, I want to say we needed 180' of heliax to get from the radio room to the antenna (mounted at the SE corner of the cooling towers.) There are other locations that would need more, but the usual range for PoE that I hear bandied about is 300' -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From andyw at pobox.com Thu Aug 8 16:27:08 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002) In-Reply-To: ; from ben@nerp.net on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 04:36:22PM -0500 References: <20020808211426.GB15228@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020808170411.C8428@florence.linkmargin.com> Ben Kochie wrote: > [...] > We discovered there is a nice little shack on the roof where we can feed > coax from. and would not need a weatherproof enclosure. just a small > wall mount rack cabinet or similar. from there we can run coax cable to > antennas. this should cut down the needed coax to 100 feet or less. I think you might get into hot water using 110V there. It's most definitely a damp location - might even qualify as wet. I'd have to check the NEC, but I don't think that it's OK to use the power outlets up there for a fixed installation. I'm not even sure I'd want to use those outlets, without knowing where they were getting their power from. There are huge motors on top of the cooling towers, lots of nasty transients around. There are a couple of TV cameras & microwave links up there also (one at the top of the ladder up the evaporators) - where do they get their power from ? We could follow that lead. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From bryan at edgar.sector14.net Thu Aug 8 16:44:53 2002 From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Site information In-Reply-To: from "Nick Ryberg" at Aug 08, 2002 08:56:29 AM Message-ID: <200208082226.g78MQfR24455@twenty.sector14.net> Nick Ryberg wrote: > > Are you folks just looking at connecting the two? The Walker is at the base > of the hill leading up Hennepin from the Basilica towards the peak at > Franklin. Wouldn't something up there work better? or is the Walker > 'available'? I don't believe you could get a path between the Moos tower and the Walker. Downtown Minneapolis is in the way. I suggested the Walker because I believe they would be receptive to setting up an access point to allow network access from the sculpture gardens and Loring park. Looking at arial photographs I believe we could get a path to VISI down Hennipin Ave from there as well. The building engineer is a friend of mine and will probably be helpful with getting us to talk to the right person to put the proposal to. The Walker isn't a very tall building but I think that it'd be much easier to get approval to put something on the roof than many other buildings. If someone has a better suggestion I'm certainly willing to look at it. -- Bryan Halvorson bryan@edgar.sector14.net From poptix at techmonkeys.org Thu Aug 8 17:03:19 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002) In-Reply-To: <20020808170411.C8428@florence.linkmargin.com>; from andyw@pobox.com on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 05:04:11PM -0500 References: <20020808211426.GB15228@botwerks.org> <20020808170411.C8428@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020808174442.D24439@techmonkeys.org> On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 05:04:11PM -0500, Andy Warner wrote: > > I think you might get into hot water using 110V there. It's most > definitely a damp location - might even qualify as wet. I'd > have to check the NEC, but I don't think that it's OK to use > the power outlets up there for a fixed installation. I'm not > even sure I'd want to use those outlets, without knowing where > they were getting their power from. There are huge motors on top > of the cooling towers, lots of nasty transients around. While Ben and I were up there we noticed that there is already some directional 802.11/802.11b equipment up there, fortunately it's directional. The area they're in isn't damp/wet, and the power should be safe (and relatively clean). > > There are a couple of TV cameras & microwave links up there > also (one at the top of the ladder up the evaporators) - where > do they get their power from ? We could follow that lead. We'll have to see next time 'round. > -- > andyw@pobox.com -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From poptix at techmonkeys.org Thu Aug 8 17:21:21 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] WiFi hacker honeypot In-Reply-To: <20020729132340.E3224@n0jcf.net>; from chrise@pobox.com on Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 01:23:40PM -0500 References: <20020729132340.E3224@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20020729141921.B5338@techmonkeys.org> On Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 01:23:40PM -0500, Chris Elmquist wrote: > This was on Slashdot today... > > http://online.securityfocus.com/news/552 > > Wi Fi Honeypots a New Hacker Trap > > War drivers beware, the next wireless network you tap might be part of an > elaborate sting. > By Kevin Poulsen, Jul 29 2002 1:00AM > > Hackers searching for wireless access points in the nation's capital may soon > war drive right into a trap. Last month researchers at the government > contractor Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) launched > what might be the first organized wireless honeypot, designed to tempt > unwary Wi Fi hackers and bandwidth borrowers and gather data on their > techniques and tools of choice. > [...] This sounds great, from the article it sounds like he's merely trying to monitor what people do with it (DoS, spam, or legitimate internet access such as web surfing etc). The article claims that since he set it up June 15th, he's only had a single ping sweep of the network, and people trying to surf the web. I think this will go a long way towards getting rid of the '(c|h)acker' stigma that seems to have leeched over to 'wardriving'. > > -- > Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~chrise -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From joel at helgeson.com Fri Aug 9 08:33:15 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link In-Reply-To: <20020805170028.GA5893@bitstream.net> Message-ID: <000501c23fae$4a70c8c0$027dd8d8@SECURITY> SymetriQ is a good company that installs wireless bridges. They're a Cisco partner and have considerable experience. They're located in Bloomington. 952-921-0303 www.symetriq.com Joel -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of Joe Robertson Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 12:00 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link Thanks for all the replies. Let me throw an addendum. Does anyone have any recommended local installers/VARs? Thans again, Joe On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 09:57:28AM -0500, Joe Robertson wrote: > I'm looking to interconnect two offices with very solid, direct LOS that are about six blocks apart. I'm looking at DS3 or 100Mbit speeds and thought I'd throw the question to this group for ideas. > > This project needs a cheap but reliable connection. I'm currently looking at some Tsunami 100Mbps bridges, but would love to hear other suggestions. > > Thanks, > > Joe > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From andyw at pobox.com Fri Aug 9 09:04:11 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link In-Reply-To: <000501c23fae$4a70c8c0$027dd8d8@SECURITY>; from joel@helgeson.com on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 09:08:51AM -0500 References: <20020805170028.GA5893@bitstream.net> <000501c23fae$4a70c8c0$027dd8d8@SECURITY> Message-ID: <20020809094028.D8428@florence.linkmargin.com> Joel R. Helgeson wrote: > SymetriQ is a good company that installs wireless bridges. They're a > [...] Any you work for ? ....... Disclosure is a good thing. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From poptix at techmonkeys.org Fri Aug 9 13:36:13 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] [John.Pavelich@entrust.com: [KISMET] YDI amp/antenna deal] Message-ID: <20020809141433.K24439@techmonkeys.org> ----- Forwarded message from John Pavelich ----- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:45:58 -0400 From: John Pavelich To: wireless@kismetwireless.net Subject: [KISMET] YDI amp/antenna deal X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Mailing-List: contact wireless-help@kismetwireless.net; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list wireless@kismetwireless.net In case anyone is interested in an amp/antenna here's a special I was just told about. Note...I have no affiliation with YDI, I just use their products and am on their mailing list. FP18A - Amplified FP18A Ant, with DC Injector (no mounting flange), power supply, and L-mounting bracket. (http://www.ydi.com/fp18a.asp) - $299 ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From andyw at pobox.com Fri Aug 9 15:14:33 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link In-Reply-To: <20020809094028.D8428@florence.linkmargin.com>; from andyw@pobox.com on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 09:40:28AM -0500 References: <20020805170028.GA5893@bitstream.net> <000501c23fae$4a70c8c0$027dd8d8@SECURITY> <20020809094028.D8428@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020809155829.E8428@florence.linkmargin.com> Andy Warner wrote: > Joel R. Helgeson wrote: > > SymetriQ is a good company that installs wireless bridges. They're a > > [...] > > Any you work for ? ....... s/Any/And/ (too used to typing andy) -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From joel at helgeson.com Fri Aug 9 16:53:42 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link In-Reply-To: <20020809155829.E8428@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <000101c23ff4$e09a3d90$027dd8d8@SECURITY> I work for SymetriQ ;) How do you think I know their a great company? I/We do it all the time. Joel -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of Andy Warner Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 3:58 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link Andy Warner wrote: > Joel R. Helgeson wrote: > > SymetriQ is a good company that installs wireless bridges. They're a > > [...] > > Any you work for ? ....... s/Any/And/ (too used to typing andy) -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From dieman at ringworld.org Sun Aug 11 12:30:05 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc. Message-ID: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout> After being off the list for a while I decided to read the archives a bit for this month. I've read the thoughts about the network and I'm pretty worried about this secnario: ISP sets up VPN server on network. ISP offers pay-for-access model to anyone, but doesn't mention TCWUG, just makes a pretty map. Users have no knowledge of TCWUG and what the network is coming from TCWUG gets -$0- and falls fast into disarray with glut of new users. I've also done some thinking on how to mitigate that situation and I've come up with a bunch of blanks. Most of them revolve on how to provide open access to individuals while denying abusive access. I think the situation might be best worked out with the following: Two access levels, Supporting and Freeloader: Supporting pays money, perhaps yearly, perhaps monthly. They get equal access along with any other supporters and in theory the money requested assists with network upgrades to meet that demand. Some sort of QoS is involved but is mostly non restrictive. Perhaps some way to provide a minimum amount to each user, but the excess is first come first serve to supporters. Freeloaders get essentially "Scavenger" access. It's run-off excess energy from Supporters, Network Founders, Major Network Sponsors, Admins and the sort. This way, the network can still be considered a public service and potentially still a nonprofit (?) but just providing a different level of service to those who pay. Scavenger access is an idea that's been used in internet2 land to apply to specific organizations 'non-primary-mission' traffic. More can be found here: http://qbone.internet2.edu/qbss/ Supporters who decide to stop paying become Freeloaders. No 'extra' charges should be put on someone to make the conversion back and forth. Either category should require a method of identification by an Admin to recieve a login. Perhaps Freeloaders can be auth-free, but I'm worried the abuse will get so bad it won't be worth it. Perhaps let auth-free users only get to specific resources and other auth-free users. So, three levels of bits. Supporting users 'mandatory bandwidth allocation' bits, Supporting users 'extra bandwidth thats available' bits, and the Freeloaders scavenger bits. Of course, I have no experience implementing QBSS on anything yet. I've yet had a chance to break the closest cisco router I've got my grubby hands enabled on. And, I don't know what sort of QoS can be done on Linux or *BSD to further these means. This sort of proposal also assumes that we are looking at an embedded platform with either host_ap or the freebsd (i think) non-free orinoco ap driver. I also assume that a decently hard to avoid authentication protocol is used. I wish I could have made it to the recent meeting, but ran into issues where I couldn't make it. (colo box drive finally took a dive, spent a few hours with a friend configuring a new machine from scratch and putting in the most recent backup. Luckily I was able to get the old box to come up enough that I could rsync recent data to the new machine.) -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From sulrich at botwerks.org Mon Aug 12 08:01:01 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] trying something different ... for the meetings Message-ID: <20020812072919.B28266@botwerks.org> all- it would seem that there are some varied interests within the group above and beyond the desire to build out a community wireless network. in an effort to scratch these itches - i've taken the liberty of trying something different. (and something that we discussed in our meeting on tuesday) in addition to our usual banter regarding locations, overlay vs. hotspot and such i'm working to get us a "guest speaker" - initially it's looking like these speakers will come from amongst us. we can take the first 45 minutes or so of the meeting and focus on this topic in a more formal manner. to that end the first topic (09/03/2002) we'll be covering will be wardriving for beginners. this will be presented by our own matthew hallacy. this will be an overview of some of the more popular wireless sniffing tools as well as some practical tips on getting your own wireless sniffing configuration setup. frankly, i've selected this topic because of its sex appeal. it has some geek interest and there are some very practical applications for the use of such tools in corporate america today. this is something that we can publicize to other folks who might not necessarily have an interest in our overlay vs. hotspot banter but would be interested in this for their own networks and as a way to do something cool with their cars. the second topic that i'm working to get us a speaker for is a radio technology primer. clearing up the confusion regarding power, antennas and providing a basic introduction to the technologies associated with RF networks. more as it happens. feedback regarding topics of interest would be appreciated and i'll work what contacts i have (if you have contact willing to cover some of these topics as well that's always appreciated) to get us speakers. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From sulrich at botwerks.org Mon Aug 12 08:54:38 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc. In-Reply-To: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout> References: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout> Message-ID: <20020812084218.C28266@botwerks.org> scott- nice to have you back amongst us! i think that we're basically on the same page here, although i don't know that we have the infrastructure to provide services on the level you've described. matt made some interesting comments which i thought were particularly apropos for our group, struggling with the whole AUP element as well as how to deal with freeloaders. i think that the consensus that the group has achieved thus far is: where folks are interested in offering hotspot access, they can. we as a group can work to come up with an authentication scheme to allow members acccess via whatever access points they can reach and share and share alike. how the overlay network foots up with folks that have dedicated internet access is a matter for further research. when last we saw our hero (Saturday, Aug 10, 2002), Scott Dier was madly tapping out: > After being off the list for a while I decided to read the archives a > bit for this month. I've read the thoughts about the network and I'm > pretty worried about this secnario: > > ISP sets up VPN server on network. > ISP offers pay-for-access model to anyone, but doesn't mention TCWUG, > just makes a pretty map. > Users have no knowledge of TCWUG and what the network is coming from > TCWUG gets -$0- and falls fast into disarray with glut of new users. > > I've also done some thinking on how to mitigate that situation and I've > come up with a bunch of blanks. Most of them revolve on how to provide > open access to individuals while denying abusive access. I think the > situation might be best worked out with the following: > > Two access levels, Supporting and Freeloader: > > Supporting pays money, perhaps yearly, perhaps monthly. They get equal > access along with any other supporters and in theory the money requested > assists with network upgrades to meet that demand. Some sort of QoS is > involved but is mostly non restrictive. Perhaps some way to provide a > minimum amount to each user, but the excess is first come first serve to > supporters. > > Freeloaders get essentially "Scavenger" access. It's run-off excess > energy from Supporters, Network Founders, Major Network Sponsors, Admins > and the sort. This way, the network can still be considered a public > service and potentially still a nonprofit (?) but just providing a > different level of service to those who pay. Scavenger access is an > idea that's been used in internet2 land to apply to specific > organizations 'non-primary-mission' traffic. More can be found here: > http://qbone.internet2.edu/qbss/ qbss - is essentially a fancy name put on DiffServ best effort traffic. i'd be all for this and we have the ability to do this on router platforms that support marking and passing with different priority traffic with DSCP codepoints. like you i'm not sure what the capabilities are for doing this under PC based router platforms. there are some challenges associated with doing this. all routers within the routing domain must support DiffServ and the appropriate per hop behaviours and the edge devices must know how to map a particular user (based on IP address or .1p tag) to a particular class of service. > Supporters who decide to stop paying become Freeloaders. No 'extra' > charges should be put on someone to make the conversion back and forth. > Either category should require a method of identification by an Admin to > recieve a login. Perhaps Freeloaders can be auth-free, but I'm worried > the abuse will get so bad it won't be worth it. Perhaps let auth-free > users only get to specific resources and other auth-free users. > > So, three levels of bits. Supporting users 'mandatory bandwidth > allocation' bits, Supporting users 'extra bandwidth thats available' > bits, and the Freeloaders scavenger bits. > > Of course, I have no experience implementing QBSS on anything yet. I've > yet had a chance to break the closest cisco router I've got my grubby > hands enabled on. And, I don't know what sort of QoS can be done on > Linux or *BSD to further these means. This sort of proposal also > assumes that we are looking at an embedded platform with either host_ap > or the freebsd (i think) non-free orinoco ap driver. I also assume that > a decently hard to avoid authentication protocol is used. as an aside - freebsd and openbsd provide the ability to get the queuing functionality with altq (openbsd supports pf which i believe supports marking). the marking functionality i haven't fully researched on either of these platforms. > I wish I could have made it to the recent meeting, but ran into issues > where I couldn't make it. (colo box drive finally took a dive, spent a > few hours with a friend configuring a new machine from scratch and > putting in the most recent backup. Luckily I was able to get the old > box to come up enough that I could rsync recent data to the new > machine.) -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From chrome at real-time.com Mon Aug 12 10:02:23 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc. In-Reply-To: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout>; from dieman@ringworld.org on Sat, Aug 10, 2002 at 11:07:24PM -0500 References: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout> Message-ID: <20020812095129.B22394@real-time.com> > ISP sets up VPN server on network. > ISP offers pay-for-access model to anyone, but doesn't mention TCWUG, > just makes a pretty map. > Users have no knowledge of TCWUG and what the network is coming from > TCWUG gets -$0- and falls fast into disarray with glut of new users. > > I've also done some thinking on how to mitigate that situation and I've > come up with a bunch of blanks. Most of them revolve on how to provide > open access to individuals while denying abusive access. keep in mind that we probably don't have to worry about controlling access for some time... we've still got a long way to go before having reliable and halfway-widely-available access across the 'Cities. Only at that point does it start to become a concern, I think. Your points are valid tho, and well-taken. Carl Soderstrom. -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Mon Aug 12 22:43:54 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc. References: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout> Message-ID: <3D5841AF.DF446DE@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Scott Dier wrote: > After being off the list for a while I decided to read the archives a > bit for this month. I've read the thoughts about the network and I'm > pretty worried about this secnario: > > ISP sets up VPN server on network. > ISP offers pay-for-access model to anyone, but doesn't mention TCWUG, > just makes a pretty map. > Users have no knowledge of TCWUG and what the network is coming from > TCWUG gets -$0- and falls fast into disarray with glut of new users. > > I've also done some thinking on how to mitigate that situation and I've > come up with a bunch of blanks. Most of them revolve on how to provide > open access to individuals while denying abusive access. I think the > situation might be best worked out with the following: > > Two access levels, Supporting and Freeloader: After the last meeting, it struck me that others may have dollar signs before their eyes, and as with linux, will gladly build upon the work - the donated, work of others, becoming the Redhat of Twin Cities wireless. If the cloud is successful, then commercial interests, whether individual or corporate, or a combination of the two, will use the network. This fact will transform the network into a de facto commercial entity. That incurs liability. Once any thing of value is exchanged, this project will be a commercial enterprise. This group really should consider the ramifications of this: once commercial traffic is allowed on the cloud, and such traffic is transferred to the Internet, this group will become a wireless backbone supplier, and anyone running an AP, an ISP. Considering the above, I strongly suggest, at the very least, incorporating as a non-profit. That way, any work that is done can only be used for the TCWUG wireless network, and any work: siting, propagation estimates, development methods and data, antenna configurations, et. al. would be proprietary, and could only be used if TCWUG, as a non-profit corporate entity, gives permission, in return for a fee, for the use of such facilities or proprietary methods and data. The moneys would be re-invested into TCWUG. Call it a cooperative. I am going to give anyone the benefit of my knowledge of and experience in urban radio propagation if that knowledge will be exploited for enrichment, but I will gladly donate it as a volunteer for a non-profit, as long as the work is protected. Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com From kritchie at kritchie.org Tue Aug 13 16:43:22 2002 From: kritchie at kritchie.org (Kent Ritchie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Site information In-Reply-To: <200208082226.g78MQfR24455@twenty.sector14.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Bryan Halvorson wrote: > I don't believe you could get a path between the Moos tower and the > Walker. Downtown Minneapolis is in the way. Well, I could see 2829 University Ave SE from 1800 Hennepin Ave. The former is the building occupied by Onvoy (9 story ugly white office building) and the latter is an 18 story assisted living residence called The Kenwood. The Kenwood is at the top of "the hill" and has a commanding view of Uptown, the West and South. It's a prime location. Don't know what the reference to Moos tower is about, but it's generally in the same direction from 1800 Hennepin as 2829 University Ave SE is. Sorry this info is a little late... been busy with other stuff - it is summer afterall :) -Kent From sulrich at botwerks.org Tue Aug 13 17:24:29 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] low cost antennas Message-ID: <20020812213644.GA60230@botwerks.org> this link just made its way across the nocat mailing list. they have kits that you can assemble and they also sell used gear. cheap. http://www.aerialix.com/ -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From chrome at real-time.com Wed Aug 14 11:29:42 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc. In-Reply-To: <3D5841AF.DF446DE@nkras.dsl.visi.com>; from nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com on Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 06:16:04PM -0500 References: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout> <3D5841AF.DF446DE@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Message-ID: <20020814112329.J31189@real-time.com> > I am going to give anyone the benefit of my knowledge of and experience in > urban radio propagation if that knowledge will be exploited for > enrichment, but I will gladly donate it as a volunteer for a non-profit, as long > as the work is protected. I heartily agree with this. I've got no problem building a network just for the geek value of it; I do however have a problem with people taking what we've done, and putting $$$ in their pocket, with no returns to us. I think a commercial operation of any sort, is likely to attract the wrong sorts of people (both users and investors/managers/hangers-on); and has a good chance of ruining the culture of this community. then again, I think changing culture is bound to happen to any community eventually, as part of its natural evolution (if it doesn't do that, it stagnates and dies). so let's just be aware of it; and keep an eye out for the future of this friendly community of geeks. :) Carl Soderstrom. -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From leaf at real-time.com Wed Aug 14 13:36:02 2002 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: [tcwug-web] Addition/Correction to previous memo re Moos Tower In-Reply-To: <001001c24310$f59add20$0200000a@iaxs.net> Message-ID: I've checked the links on the Mailing List page, and they work for me. Anyone else have a problem with the links on this page? Are you using Internet Explorer? Is it version 6.x? Then it's likely a problem with your browser security settings and/or the self signed cert. Make the necessary adjustments in your privacy or security options and try again. - Rick Tanner leaf@real-time.com On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Becky Lynn Pihl wrote: > PLEASE NOTE: My PC is dead from multiple viruses/viri (sp?). As a result, > send your response to leif@pihl.us, but also please send a "CC" (copy) to my > wife's machine, at becky@pihl.us. > ======================================== > > > p.s.: At your web page http://www.tcwug.org/mailinglists/index.html, your > link for "TCWUG General Mailing List" seems to be broken. > From chrome at real-time.com Wed Aug 14 14:11:29 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: [tcwug-web] Addition/Correction to previous memo re Moos Tower In-Reply-To: ; from leaf@real-time.com on Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 12:38:33PM -0500 References: <001001c24310$f59add20$0200000a@iaxs.net> Message-ID: <20020814135305.N31189@real-time.com> On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 12:38:33PM -0500, Rick Tanner wrote: > Anyone else have a problem with the links on this page? > > p.s.: At your web page http://www.tcwug.org/mailinglists/index.html, your > > link for "TCWUG General Mailing List" seems to be broken. works fine for me, other than popping up the message about an untrusted cert (which is because it's self-signed, rather than bought from Veri$ign). Carl Soderstrom. -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Wed Aug 14 17:36:36 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc. References: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout> <3D5841AF.DF446DE@nkras.dsl.visi.com> <20020814112329.J31189@real-time.com> Message-ID: <3D5AD885.6F06C9CF@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > > I am going to give anyone the benefit of my knowledge of and experience in > > urban radio propagation if that knowledge will be exploited for > > enrichment, but I will gladly donate it as a volunteer for a non-profit, as long > > as the work is protected. > > I heartily agree with this. I've got no problem building a network just for > the geek value of it; I do however have a problem with people taking what > we've done, and putting $$$ in their pocket, with no returns to us. > > I think a commercial operation of any sort, is likely to attract the wrong > sorts of people (both users and investors/managers/hangers-on); and has a > good chance of ruining the culture of this community. > then again, I think changing culture is bound to happen to any community > eventually, as part of its natural evolution (if it doesn't do that, it > stagnates and dies). so let's just be aware of it; and keep an eye out for > the future of this friendly community of geeks. :) Well, here we go: Non-profit corporations: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/nc.html Forms: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/forms.html Non-profit or Cooperative? Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com From dd at davedash.com Wed Aug 14 18:45:30 2002 From: dd at davedash.com (Devesh Dash) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc. In-Reply-To: <3D5AD885.6F06C9CF@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Message-ID: <24E65896-AFD8-11D6-B95B-00039397F470@davedash.com> What are we limited by as a non-profit? I suppose if any profit we do make gets reinvested into maintenance there's no net-profit, but what about a co-op... what can we do as a co-op? -dd On Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 05:24 PM, Neal wrote: > Well, here we go: > > Non-profit corporations: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/nc.html > Forms: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/forms.html > > Non-profit or Cooperative? -- Spindrop Technologies http://www.spindroptech.com/ From becky at pihl.us Wed Aug 14 22:08:24 2002 From: becky at pihl.us (Becky Lynn Pihl) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] problems with accessing discussion page, plus other Qs... References: Message-ID: <000b01c24403$374ed8a0$0200000a@iaxs.net> RT: My wife's PC uses Internet Explorer, Version: 6.0.2600.0000IC. My PC has a similar version of Explorer. My wife has had a Norton Internet Security package (2002?) installed on her PC for quite some time; I only just installed it on mine. However, Norton has not interfered with our viewing any other page (that I know of), so I don't see that being a cause of not being able to access https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list. Any other ideas re my accessing the discussion page? ----- While I've got your attention, could you tell me- Who's been the one person, or several people who are investingating having a 802.11b repeater on top of Moos tower? Did my info help any? What's the status of that? In any case, I hope to make the September meeting and meet some of you in person then and there. As I stated earlier, I'd appreciate an opportunity to talk to one of you (via phone: 651-774-7445) about the ins and outs of establishing a station in my neighborhood. Refer to "tomah" as a contact on the node map. Thanks, leif@pihl.us ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Tanner" To: "Becky Lynn Pihl" Cc: ; Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [tcwug-web] Addition/Correction to previous memo re Moos Tower > > I've checked the links on the Mailing List page, and they work for me. > > Anyone else have a problem with the links on this page? > > Are you using Internet Explorer? Is it version 6.x? > Then it's likely a problem with your browser security settings and/or the > self signed cert. Make the necessary adjustments in your privacy or > security options and try again. > > > - Rick Tanner > leaf@real-time.com > > On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Becky Lynn Pihl wrote: > > > PLEASE NOTE: My PC is dead from multiple viruses/viri (sp?). As a result, > > send your response to leif@pihl.us, but also please send a "CC" (copy) to my > > wife's machine, at becky@pihl.us. > > ======================================== > > > > > > > p.s.: At your web page http://www.tcwug.org/mailinglists/index.html, your > > link for "TCWUG General Mailing List" seems to be broken. > > > > > > From leaf at real-time.com Wed Aug 14 23:18:03 2002 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] problems with accessing discussion page, plus other Qs... In-Reply-To: <000b01c24403$374ed8a0$0200000a@iaxs.net> Message-ID: The security settings I was referring to are the ones found within IE. I was able to view the page with the same version if IE with the security settings (Tools -> Internet Options -> Security) set to High. So, that doesn't appear to be the problem. The only other thing I can think of is the Advanced security settings. (Tools -> Intenet Options -> Advanced) Do you have "Use SSL 2.0" and "Use SSL 3.0" enabled? Maybe try restoring them, the advanced options, to the defaults.. ? - Rick Tanner On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Becky Lynn Pihl wrote: > RT: > > My wife's PC uses Internet Explorer, Version: 6.0.2600.0000IC. > My PC has a similar version of Explorer. > > My wife has had a Norton Internet Security package (2002?) installed on her > PC for quite some time; I only just installed it on mine. However, Norton > has not interfered with our viewing any other page (that I know of), so I > don't see that being a cause of not being able to access > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list. > > Any other ideas re my accessing the discussion page? > From dante+tcwug at plethora.net Wed Aug 14 23:44:57 2002 From: dante+tcwug at plethora.net (Daniel Taylor) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc. In-Reply-To: <3D5AD885.6F06C9CF@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Neal wrote: > > > Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > > > > I am going to give anyone the benefit of my knowledge of and experience in > > > urban radio propagation if that knowledge will be exploited for > > > enrichment, but I will gladly donate it as a volunteer for a non-profit, as long > > > as the work is protected. > > > > I heartily agree with this. I've got no problem building a network just for > > the geek value of it; I do however have a problem with people taking what > > we've done, and putting $$$ in their pocket, with no returns to us. > > > > I think a commercial operation of any sort, is likely to attract the wrong > > sorts of people (both users and investors/managers/hangers-on); and has a > > good chance of ruining the culture of this community. > > then again, I think changing culture is bound to happen to any community > > eventually, as part of its natural evolution (if it doesn't do that, it > > stagnates and dies). so let's just be aware of it; and keep an eye out for > > the future of this friendly community of geeks. :) > > Well, here we go: > > Non-profit corporations: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/nc.html > Forms: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/forms.html > > Non-profit or Cooperative? > I still favor co-op. It seems the correct model for the project. -- Daniel Taylor dante@plethora.net From jima at beer.tclug.org Thu Aug 15 11:26:06 2002 From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Amusing snippet Message-ID: Oddly, my boss forwarded me this: http://boingboing.net/2002_08_01_archive.html#85343191 Jima From spencer at mail.tcopensys.com Thu Aug 15 11:30:21 2002 From: spencer at mail.tcopensys.com (spencer@mail.tcopensys.com) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <3D5AD885.6F06C9CF@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Message-ID: <20020815060302.GL28057@tcopensys.com> On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 11:25:19PM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote: >On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Neal wrote: > >> >> >> Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: >> >> > > I am going to give anyone the benefit of my knowledge of and experience in >> >I still favor co-op. It seems the correct model for the project. hear here. Although I may very well be wrong, becoming a legitamite co-op may be just as difficult and time consuming as becoming a NPO. I would like to see the group solidify more on a "mission statement" before we decide how we are going to be treated in the real-world. I think we have to decide who and what we are before we decide 'how' we are. > >-- >Daniel Taylor >dante@plethora.net > >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -- --*--SpencerUnderground--*-- http://autonomous.tv/ spencer@autonomous.tv Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2 68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020815/b0641d39/attachment.pgp From cncole at earthlink.net Thu Aug 15 12:18:23 2002 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] co-op or NPO? In-Reply-To: <20020815060302.GL28057@tcopensys.com> Message-ID: <002701c2447d$c96b04f0$6401a8c0@HPZT> > -----Original Message----- > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On > Behalf Of spencer@mail.tcopensys.com > > Although I may very well be wrong, becoming a legitamite > co-op may be just as difficult and time consuming as becoming > a NPO. I > would like to see the group solidify more on a "mission statement" > before we decide how we are going to be treated in the real-world. > > I think we have to decide who and what we are before we > decide 'how' we > are. > > > >-- > >Daniel Taylor > >dante@plethora.net > > All that written mission stuff has direct bearing on which IRS sections apply and determine what you *can* be. Getting to an approved 501c3 status (or other) is not easy these days because so many have abused the system and there's a backlog. The State of MN must first approve, then those Inc papers go to the IRS for their review. MN can and does approve things that the IRS will not: they don't have the same purpose or rules. It doesn't work to invent something and then try to tell IRS, state, et al, what legal history really should be (they have been there and done that for a few hundred years already: TCWUG hasn't). Either design it to be something, including the IRS and other requirements, or later discover whether it's allowed at all in the daydream form. Group forums and open committees of the hopeful but uninformed are not a good way to get this stuff done. Better to have some folks draft something and present it for review and comment. Needs: 1) mission stuff (what); 2) techie stuff at outline level for function and interface requirements (how); 3) org stuff about official meetings, officers, who can vote, decisions, revenues, properties, amendments, and a dissolution clause (who, where, when, etc). --- Chuck Cole From dante at plethora.net Thu Aug 15 17:38:31 2002 From: dante at plethora.net (Dan Taylor) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc. In-Reply-To: <20020815060302.GL28057@tcopensys.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 spencer@mail.tcopensys.com wrote: > On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 11:25:19PM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote: > >On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Neal wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > >> > >> > > I am going to give anyone the benefit of my knowledge of and experience in > >> > > >I still favor co-op. It seems the correct model for the project. > hear here. > > Although I may very well be wrong, becoming a legitamite > co-op may be just as difficult and time consuming as becoming a NPO. I > would like to see the group solidify more on a "mission statement" > before we decide how we are going to be treated in the real-world. > > I think we have to decide who and what we are before we decide 'how' we > are. Quite, but part of the Non-Profit Corporation vs. Co-op decision is exactly that. What are we setting out to do here, what is a fair enough way to share the risks/rewards among the participants, and how do we keep non-participants from coming in and raining on our parade? What we are setting out to do is set up a wireless infrastructure that will be useful and interesting to the members of TCWUG, to be composed of links, hotspots, and uplinks as available and necessary. The other two questions seem to be the major topic of conversation on the list over the last couple of weeks, so: I propose that setting up the TCWUG WWAN be done by the TCWUG as a cooperative business entity. This provides cost dispersal (we would each contribute to the TCWUG/WWAN in cash and/or PIK for the privilege of access to the WWAN) and a clear means for risk/reward sharing. From natecars at real-time.com Fri Aug 16 01:02:41 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] I want one. Message-ID: http://www.flukenetworks.com/us/LAN/Handheld+Testers/WaveRunner/Overview.htm -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From poptix at techmonkeys.org Fri Aug 16 13:07:10 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] I want one. In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 05:47:48PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20020816125142.N24439@techmonkeys.org> On Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 05:47:48PM -0500, Nate Carlson wrote: > http://www.flukenetworks.com/us/LAN/Handheld+Testers/WaveRunner/Overview.htm I'm skeptical, it sounds like a repackaged kismet. =) > > -- > Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 > http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From andyw at pobox.com Fri Aug 16 13:38:58 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Looking for a 2.4 GHz dish to borrow. Message-ID: <20020816132902.E6726@florence.linkmargin.com> I'm talking with some friends who both have cabins on some lake "up north" (Gull Lake, I think) - they're wondering about linking their cabins with 802.11b. I'm getting conflicting reports of the terrain between the two, and topo maps haven't been too revealing - I'm figuring that the only way to know for sure is to get up there and do some live testing. I've got a bunch of antennae I can take up, 19dB dish, 13dB panel, omnis etc etc, but right now I don't have 2 dishes on hand. Does anyone have a dish or high-gain yagi that I could borrow for a few day or two sometime ? I promise to look after anything I borrow, and replace it if something stupid happens to it. I just need to figure out what's needed, then they can buy the correct pieces. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From natecars at real-time.com Fri Aug 16 13:42:19 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] I want one. In-Reply-To: <20020816125142.N24439@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote: > > http://www.flukenetworks.com/us/LAN/Handheld+Testers/WaveRunner/Overview.htm > > I'm skeptical, it sounds like a repackaged kismet. =) I know, you can easily do everything you can do on it with a laptop or your own ipaq, but still.. a Fluke device running Linux is just cool. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From cheath at interlinkcom.com Fri Aug 16 13:57:12 2002 From: cheath at interlinkcom.com (Heath, Chandler) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Looking for a 2.4 GHz dish to borrow. Message-ID: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F400@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> Andy, I have a 34" grid you can borrow. It has never been off the shelf. E-Mail me for details. Chandler -----Original Message----- From: Andy Warner [mailto:andyw@pobox.com] Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 1:29 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: [TCWUG] Looking for a 2.4 GHz dish to borrow. I'm talking with some friends who both have cabins on some lake "up north" (Gull Lake, I think) - they're wondering about linking their cabins with 802.11b. I'm getting conflicting reports of the terrain between the two, and topo maps haven't been too revealing - I'm figuring that the only way to know for sure is to get up there and do some live testing. I've got a bunch of antennae I can take up, 19dB dish, 13dB panel, omnis etc etc, but right now I don't have 2 dishes on hand. Does anyone have a dish or high-gain yagi that I could borrow for a few day or two sometime ? I promise to look after anything I borrow, and replace it if something stupid happens to it. I just need to figure out what's needed, then they can buy the correct pieces. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ From mgenelin at ieee.umn.edu Fri Aug 16 14:53:02 2002 From: mgenelin at ieee.umn.edu (Mattew Genelin) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc. In-Reply-To: <20020815060302.GL28057@tcopensys.com> Message-ID: Hey Spencer (and all)- On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 spencer@mail.tcopensys.com wrote: <> Now *that* sounds like a good starting point. Why are we here? What is each of us getting out of this group? What do we gain by incorporating as anything (other then headaches of paperwork)? Regards, ---Matthew Genelin--- _ _ __ ---//\/\atthew (|_;enelin--- ---------------------------------------------------------------- - Matthew Genelin (612) 636-2472 (cell) - - Engineering Student (651) 636-1842 (parents) - - University of Minnesota, TC n0ynt@amsat.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------- From andyw at pobox.com Fri Aug 16 17:02:03 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Warchalking gets minor FBi attention.. Message-ID: <20020816165552.A10525@florence.linkmargin.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2197252.stm Anyone seen any marks around the twin cities ? I have not. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From chrome at real-time.com Fri Aug 16 17:03:47 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc. In-Reply-To: ; from mgenelin@ieee.umn.edu on Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 02:36:28PM -0500 References: <20020815060302.GL28057@tcopensys.com> Message-ID: <20020816170036.S26230@real-time.com> > Now *that* sounds like a good starting point. Why are we here? > What is each of us getting out of this group? What do we gain by > incorporating as anything (other then headaches of paperwork)? personally I'm just here because I think routing on wireless networks is an Interesting Problem; and because my boss is big on this stuff and encourages employee participation. ;) Carl Soderstrom. -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From poptix at techmonkeys.org Fri Aug 16 18:00:08 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Warchalking gets minor FBi attention.. In-Reply-To: <20020816165552.A10525@florence.linkmargin.com>; from andyw@pobox.com on Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 04:55:52PM -0500 References: <20020816165552.A10525@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020816174938.O24439@techmonkeys.org> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 04:55:52PM -0500, Andy Warner wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2197252.stm > > Anyone seen any marks around the twin cities ? I have > not. Nope, we've got this stuff called GPS and computers, along with some nifty maps to tell us where our access points are =P Speaking of, I'm (soon) going to make it so that a list of access points from maps.tcwug.org can be downloaded in waypoint format for various GPS units, is there any real interest in this? > -- > andyw@pobox.com > > Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From joel at helgeson.com Sat Aug 17 22:54:12 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Tech-Know Session Message-ID: <000301c24660$a7213010$2802a8c0@SECURITY> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2002-8-20 - TechKnow Session.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 89408 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020817/b8a786fd/2002-8-20-TechKnowSession.pdf From dave at davedash.com Mon Aug 19 16:14:22 2002 From: dave at davedash.com (dave@davedash.com) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] nocat nodes... Message-ID: <8AC0FB7C-B3AB-11D6-B897-00039397F470@davedash.com> Does anybody here have experience setting up nocat nodes? What wireless interfaces have people used with the nocat gateway? I was thinking with either the linksys PCI card or maybe the linksys wap11. My question with the Wap 11 is can I plug it directly into a 10/100 ethernet card or do I need a cross over cable? thanks:) -dd -- Spindrop Technologies http://www.spindroptech.com/ From cheath at interlinkcom.com Mon Aug 19 16:35:00 2002 From: cheath at interlinkcom.com (Heath, Chandler) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] nocat nodes... Message-ID: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F417@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> WAP11, Crossover needed. ;-) -----Original Message----- From: dave@davedash.com [mailto:dave@davedash.com] Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 2:41 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: [TCWUG] nocat nodes... Does anybody here have experience setting up nocat nodes? What wireless interfaces have people used with the nocat gateway? I was thinking with either the linksys PCI card or maybe the linksys wap11. My question with the Wap 11 is can I plug it directly into a 10/100 ethernet card or do I need a cross over cable? thanks:) -dd -- Spindrop Technologies http://www.spindroptech.com/ _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ From andyw at pobox.com Mon Aug 19 16:38:02 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] nocat nodes... In-Reply-To: <8AC0FB7C-B3AB-11D6-B897-00039397F470@davedash.com>; from dave@davedash.com on Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 02:40:40PM -0500 References: <8AC0FB7C-B3AB-11D6-B897-00039397F470@davedash.com> Message-ID: <20020819162604.D23825@florence.linkmargin.com> dave@davedash.com wrote: > Does anybody here have experience setting up nocat nodes? Some, but I've not putzed with the nightlies in a while. > What wireless interfaces have people used with the nocat gateway? Linksys PCI card & hostap driver. > I was thinking with either the linksys PCI card or maybe the linksys > wap11. My question with the Wap 11 is can I plug it directly into a > 10/100 ethernet card or do I need a cross over cable? You'll need a crossover cable. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From natecars at real-time.com Mon Aug 19 20:10:18 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Warchalking gets minor FBi attention.. In-Reply-To: <20020816174938.O24439@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote: > Nope, we've got this stuff called GPS and computers, along with some > nifty maps to tell us where our access points are =P > > Speaking of, I'm (soon) going to make it so that a list of access > points from maps.tcwug.org can be downloaded in waypoint format for > various GPS units, is there any real interest in this? Yeah, once I get off my butt and buy a GPS! :) -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From dieman at ringworld.org Mon Aug 19 21:58:26 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: nocat nodes... In-Reply-To: <20020819162604.D23825@florence.linkmargin.com> References: <8AC0FB7C-B3AB-11D6-B897-00039397F470@davedash.com> <20020819162604.D23825@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <1029802229.8610.253.camel@runabout> On Mon, 2002-08-19 at 16:26, Andy Warner wrote: > dave@davedash.com wrote: > > Does anybody here have experience setting up nocat nodes? > > Some, but I've not putzed with the nightlies in a while. > > > What wireless interfaces have people used with the nocat gateway? > > Linksys PCI card & hostap driver. Ditto. -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From dave at davedash.com Mon Aug 19 22:12:02 2002 From: dave at davedash.com (dave@davedash.com) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: nocat nodes... In-Reply-To: <1029802229.8610.253.camel@runabout> Message-ID: >>> What wireless interfaces have people used with the nocat gateway? >> >> Linksys PCI card & hostap driver. > > Ditto. How is the range on those things? I've got a couple of BEFW11S4's, do you think the range might be similar? -d From andyw at pobox.com Mon Aug 19 22:55:34 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: nocat nodes... In-Reply-To: ; from dave@davedash.com on Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 10:05:12PM -0500 References: <1029802229.8610.253.camel@runabout> Message-ID: <20020819223808.F23825@florence.linkmargin.com> dave@davedash.com wrote: > [of Linksys WMP-11's, hostap & nocat ....] > How is the range on those things? I've got a couple of BEFW11S4's, do > you think the range might be similar? Ish. The RF characteristics are probably very similar. Give us an FCC id off one of your units and we can check the FCC database for RF output power etc. The standalone unit has some minor advantages: o it has diversity antennae o it isn't attached to a large piece of metal (the computer) I use a detached antenna connected by a short piece of coax with my WMP-11, which I think more than makes up for the two things listed above. The antenna has more gain than the dummy loads that Linksys ship with their units too. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From ben at nerp.net Mon Aug 19 23:34:22 2002 From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: nocat nodes... In-Reply-To: <20020819223808.F23825@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 someone know a good web table of such FCC specified things? anyone want to make one and put it on the tcwug site? hard data on the RF of AP's and cards would really be nice. - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > dave@davedash.com wrote: > > [of Linksys WMP-11's, hostap & nocat ....] > > How is the range on those things? I've got a couple of BEFW11S4's, do > > you think the range might be similar? > > Ish. > > The RF characteristics are probably very similar. Give us an FCC > id off one of your units and we can check the FCC database for > RF output power etc. > > The standalone unit has some minor advantages: > > o it has diversity antennae > > o it isn't attached to a large piece of > metal (the computer) > > I use a detached antenna connected by a short piece > of coax with my WMP-11, which I think more than makes up > for the two things listed above. The antenna has more gain > than the dummy loads that Linksys ship with their units too. > -- > andyw@pobox.com > > Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9YcP7flzKmtpiQEMRApCkAKCV8H2N2AiXOBzqvjsv86qtgySijgCfYcKA ZCZKBf1Fzl8Xwlyt12Cu1WM= =LWb0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From austad at marketwatch.com Tue Aug 20 13:58:53 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB127@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of cheaply? If not, I'll just grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere. Jay From list at slushpupie.com Tue Aug 20 15:48:15 2002 From: list at slushpupie.com (Jay Kline) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB127@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB127@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <200208201540.38543.list@slushpupie.com> On Tuesday 20 August 2002 1:25 pm, Austad, Jay wrote: > Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of cheaply? If not, I'll just > grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere. Office Max has the Dlink 900AP for $60 on sale this week. From jkotek at madgenius.com Tue Aug 20 16:17:22 2002 From: jkotek at madgenius.com (Jon Kotek) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office Message-ID: <20020820095829.M58723@madgenius.com> Hey all, I have been requested to come up with a proposal for a customer of mine. They have an office building that leases small offices with services. They would like to offer net access but because of the age of the building running cat5 is going to be spendy. I have recommended possibly using wireless. Now I need to find out what would the best way to deploy this. The building is VERY old and because of that there are walls that can be up to 16 inches thick cement. I would like to know what would the best access points to deploy and the best authentication to use. There is already some Cat5 ran through the building so I can hook into them but there also might be places where I would have to install a repeater. Thanks! Jon From natecars at real-time.com Tue Aug 20 16:38:27 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: <20020820095829.M58723@madgenius.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Jon Kotek wrote: > Hey all, I have been requested to come up with a proposal for a > customer of mine. They have an office building that leases small > offices with services. They would like to offer net access but > because of the age of the building running cat5 is going to be spendy. > I have recommended possibly using wireless. Now I need to find out > what would the best way to deploy this. The building is VERY old and > because of that there are walls that can be up to 16 inches thick > cement. I would like to know what would the best access points to > deploy and the best authentication to use. There is already some Cat5 > ran through the building so I can hook into them but there also might > be places where I would have to install a repeater. If you haven't done this before, best to hire someone who has, and learn from them. Sounds like a fairly complex installation. That said, you'll need to do a site survey, to figure out what's actually going to block wireless signals. I'm not the world's expert in this or anything, but to do a poor man's survey, you can just grab a Cisco card and whatever AP, and use their 'Site Survey' software (Windows only.. *sigh*).. this'll tell you what type of s/n ratio you're getting to the AP everywhere you go. It's best to do this with the hardware they're planning on buying - if they want cheap-o AP's, then buy a cheap AP and use that. That way, you'll see where you need to place each AP to get optimal signal everywhere in the building. As far as authentication, if they want to spend big bucks, go Cisco. If they don't want to spend big bucks, my personal way of doing it is to take el-cheapo wireless gear and put it all behind a Linux/OpenBSD/pick-your-favorite-IPSec-implementation VPN concentrator. Then, require each client to use an el-cheapo VPN gateway (albeit a Linux/OpenBSD box, or a $150 Linksys VPN router), and that way you've got an IPSec tunnel protecting each of your clients. 'course, there are a million other ways of doin this.. :) -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From chrome at real-time.com Tue Aug 20 17:40:30 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 04:23:44PM -0500 References: <20020820095829.M58723@madgenius.com> Message-ID: <20020820165159.K30528@real-time.com> > That said, you'll need to do a site survey, to figure out what's actually > going to block wireless signals. I'm not the world's expert in this or > anything, but to do a poor man's survey, you can just grab a Cisco card > and whatever AP, and use their 'Site Survey' software (Windows only.. > *sigh*).. there's also the tool available on this page: http://gicl.mcs.drexel.edu/people/sevy//airport/ which I haven't tried out yet; but since his rg1000 config tool works fairly well (once you have the java2 JRE installed); I'd guess that the link test tool works as well. Carl Soderstrom. -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From chewie at wookimus.net Tue Aug 20 17:44:24 2002 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:23:44 CDT." References: Message-ID: <20020820215530.8D98C1809B@wookimus.net> Nate wrote: > That said, you'll need to do a site survey, to figure out what's > actually going to block wireless signals. ...[snip]... this'll tell > you what type of s/n ratio you're getting to the AP everywhere you go. I believe you can just use "iwconfig " from the Linux wireless tools packages. i.e. #!/bin/sh -e # Run this script w/the first arg being the location (i.e. # "takewstat room221" iwconfig >> ${1:-"unspecified"}.stat You should get signal and noise stats right there. Sure, it's not all pretty and graphed for you, but it's the data that's important. > It's best to do this with the hardware they're planning on buying - if > they want cheap-o AP's, then buy a cheap AP and use that. That way, > you'll see where you need to place each AP to get optimal signal > everywhere in the building. Good advice. > As far as authentication ...[snip]... 'course, there are a million > other ways of doin this.. :) I wonder if the University of Minnesota NTS department has published their authentication software yet. At the U, every student, faculty and staff member receive X.500 accounts with which they can authenticate via a web interface or system logins (UNIX). The NTS department uses the X.500 accounts to authenticate wireless users by tying in the DHCP subnet with DNS forwarding and/or iptables/ipchains filtering. The user then goes to the website to authenticate. When the authentication is approved, the controlling daemon opens up the firewall and routing rules for the DHCP IP address associated with that person. It's pretty slick. There was also an article in one of the recent System Administrator magazine with something to that effect. -- Chad Walstrom | a.k.a. ^chewie http://www.wookimus.net/ | s.k.a. gunnarr From poptix at techmonkeys.org Tue Aug 20 18:08:58 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP In-Reply-To: <200208201540.38543.list@slushpupie.com>; from list@slushpupie.com on Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:40:38PM -0500 References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB127@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <200208201540.38543.list@slushpupie.com> Message-ID: <20020820180044.J17346@techmonkeys.org> On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:40:38PM -0500, Jay Kline wrote: > On Tuesday 20 August 2002 1:25 pm, Austad, Jay wrote: > > Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of cheaply? If not, I'll just > > grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere. > > Office Max has the Dlink 900AP for $60 on sale this week. This would be a great chance for those of you without AP's to purchase one. -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From ben at nerp.net Tue Aug 20 21:03:12 2002 From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: <20020820095829.M58723@madgenius.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I think running wireless as the only access system, one of the things i've found in situations like that, is wireless is not a substitute for wired infrastructure. maybe HPNA might be an option.. 10mbit over existing lines.. it's cheap, fairly fast, and can be converted to ethernet easily - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Jon Kotek wrote: > > > Hey all, I have been requested to come up with a proposal for a customer of > mine. They have an office building that leases small offices with services. > They would like to offer net access but because of the age of the building > running cat5 is going to be spendy. I have recommended possibly using > wireless. Now I need to find out what would the best way to deploy this. > The building is VERY old and because of that there are walls that can be up > to 16 inches thick cement. I would like to know what would the best access > points to deploy and the best authentication to use. There is already some > Cat5 ran through the building so I can hook into them but there also might be > places where I would have to install a repeater. > > > Thanks! > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9Yu/oflzKmtpiQEMRAtfSAJ4mnIuaLVlVXJm9d50yA9q1M7L3wACghhAh sCtPQ3/WAYqKUgqPbCqk9lE= =HP3E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From austad at marketwatch.com Tue Aug 20 21:50:10 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12D@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> I just picked one up. It's supposed to be $59.99 after a $30 mail in rebate, but it's ringing up at $59.99. So if I can find the rebate thing, it would be only $29.99. It took me awhile to get it working. I was trying to use WEP and it wasn't working at all. Any ideas on getting WEP to work with an Orinoco Gold? I upgraded my drivers and firmware, but still no luck. So I'm not using WEP right now, but I've enabled the MAC address permission list thing on the AP to prevent others from hopping on. Unfortunately, initial config of the unit must be done through the USB port with some wacky winders program, which was kind of annoying. Further config can be done via the snmp util that comes with it, but I think I saw a gnome or kde based util specifically for these awhile back. I just have to find it. Jay -----Original Message----- From: Matthew S. Hallacy To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Sent: 8/20/2002 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:40:38PM -0500, Jay Kline wrote: > On Tuesday 20 August 2002 1:25 pm, Austad, Jay wrote: > > Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of cheaply? If not, I'll just > > grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere. > > Office Max has the Dlink 900AP for $60 on sale this week. This would be a great chance for those of you without AP's to purchase one. -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From austad at marketwatch.com Tue Aug 20 23:04:30 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12F@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> >I wonder if the University of Minnesota NTS department has published >their authentication software yet. At the U, every student, faculty and >staff member receive X.500 accounts with which they can authenticate via >a web interface or system logins (UNIX). The NTS department uses the >X.500 accounts to authenticate wireless users by tying in the DHCP >subnet with DNS forwarding and/or iptables/ipchains filtering. > >The user then goes to the website to authenticate. When the >authentication is approved, the controlling daemon opens up the firewall >and routing rules for the DHCP IP address associated with that person. >It's pretty slick. Or, you could go with my new favorite toy, the NetScreen 5xp firewall. It's $495, and it supports authentication against LDAP, RADIUS, or an internal database. With LDAP or RADIUS, you could authentication against a windows domain very easily by running IAS on your domain controller. When a user tries to go anywhere via http, telnet, or ssh, the NetScreen will intercept it and bring up an authentication prompt (web page for http, command line for telnet or ssh). Once the user authenticates, their request is forwarded and allowed back through. You can set the length of time for their session, I'm not sure if the session is based on IP or MAC address, but it works sweet. Jay From dieman at ringworld.org Wed Aug 21 03:05:27 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12F@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12F@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <1029907556.8583.0.camel@runabout> On Tue, 2002-08-20 at 22:45, Austad, Jay wrote: > Or, you could go with my new favorite toy, the NetScreen 5xp firewall. It's > $495, and it supports authentication against LDAP, RADIUS, or an internal > database. With LDAP or RADIUS, you could authentication against a windows > domain very easily by running IAS on your domain controller. When a user These guys do it too, and they support Linux netfilter hackers. :) http://www.watchguard.com/products/authentication.asp -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From list at slushpupie.com Wed Aug 21 07:11:32 2002 From: list at slushpupie.com (Jay Kline) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12D@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12D@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <200208210635.39131.list@slushpupie.com> I read the add that it was just $59.99. If you find a mail in rebate, let me know, I wouldnt mind getting that either. If you can figure out the SNMP thing without their windows app, I would like to hear about that too. I tried looking all over for something. Even a port scan dosnt show anything open on it. Jay On Tuesday 20 August 2002 09:24 pm, Austad, Jay wrote: > I just picked one up. It's supposed to be $59.99 after a $30 mail in > rebate, but it's ringing up at $59.99. So if I can find the rebate thing, > it would be only $29.99. > > It took me awhile to get it working. I was trying to use WEP and it wasn't > working at all. Any ideas on getting WEP to work with an Orinoco Gold? I > upgraded my drivers and firmware, but still no luck. So I'm not using WEP > right now, but I've enabled the MAC address permission list thing on the AP > to prevent others from hopping on. > > Unfortunately, initial config of the unit must be done through the USB port > with some wacky winders program, which was kind of annoying. Further > config can be done via the snmp util that comes with it, but I think I saw > a gnome or kde based util specifically for these awhile back. I just have > to find it. > > Jay > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew S. Hallacy > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Sent: 8/20/2002 6:00 PM > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:40:38PM -0500, Jay Kline wrote: > > On Tuesday 20 August 2002 1:25 pm, Austad, Jay wrote: > > > Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of cheaply? If not, > > I'll just > > > > grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere. > > > > Office Max has the Dlink 900AP for $60 on sale this week. > > This would be a great chance for those of you without AP's to purchase > one. -- Jay Kline http://www.slushpupie.com/ From poptix at techmonkeys.org Wed Aug 21 09:08:22 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP In-Reply-To: <200208210635.39131.list@slushpupie.com>; from list@slushpupie.com on Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 06:35:38AM -0500 References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12D@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <200208210635.39131.list@slushpupie.com> Message-ID: <20020821085546.Q17346@techmonkeys.org> On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 06:35:38AM -0500, Jay Kline wrote: > I read the add that it was just $59.99. If you find a mail in rebate, let me > know, I wouldnt mind getting that either. > > If you can figure out the SNMP thing without their windows app, I would like > to hear about that too. I tried looking all over for something. Even a port > scan dosnt show anything open on it. > > Jay IIRC it's selective about which interface it allows SNMP traffic from, spencer would know more. -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From list at slushpupie.com Wed Aug 21 09:50:00 2002 From: list at slushpupie.com (Jay Kline) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP In-Reply-To: <20020821085546.Q17346@techmonkeys.org> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12D@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <200208210635.39131.list@slushpupie.com> <20020821085546.Q17346@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <200208210921.28072.list@slushpupie.com> On Wednesday 21 August 2002 8:55 am, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote: > On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 06:35:38AM -0500, Jay Kline wrote: > > I read the add that it was just $59.99. If you find a mail in rebate, > > let me know, I wouldnt mind getting that either. > > > > If you can figure out the SNMP thing without their windows app, I would > > like to hear about that too. I tried looking all over for something. > > Even a port scan dosnt show anything open on it. > > > > Jay > > IIRC it's selective about which interface it allows SNMP traffic from, > spencer would know more. Nope, works on any interface. I found the Linux based utils, though. http://roma.polesye.net/ If you run debian, apt-get ap-utils and use ap-atmel Jay From chrome at real-time.com Wed Aug 21 10:37:44 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12F@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>; from austad@marketwatch.com on Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 10:45:28PM -0500 References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12F@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <20020821095734.V30528@real-time.com> > Or, you could go with my new favorite toy, the NetScreen 5xp firewall. didn't you once say there was a 10-user limit on that thing, tho? even a small office could exceed that, depending on how you reckon '10 users'. (whether it's per-source-ip [in which case, how do they deal with terminal servers?], or per-connection). Carl Soderstrom. -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From jkotek at madgenius.com Wed Aug 21 11:08:03 2002 From: jkotek at madgenius.com (Jon Kotek) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: <20020821095734.V30528@real-time.com> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12F@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020821095734.V30528@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020821105940.M67063@madgenius.com> I seem to have thought that it was IP based, so if I have a NAT box in front of it, it would only see one IP address. Jon > > Or, you could go with my new favorite toy, the NetScreen 5xp firewall. > > didn't you once say there was a 10-user limit on that thing, tho? > even a small office could exceed that, depending on how you reckon > '10 users'. (whether it's per-source-ip [in which case, how do they > deal with terminal servers?], or per-connection). > > Carl Soderstrom. > -- > Systems Administrator > Real-Time Enterprises > www.real-time.com > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, > Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From mgenelin at ieee.umn.edu Wed Aug 21 11:13:13 2002 From: mgenelin at ieee.umn.edu (Mattew Genelin) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Warchalking gets minor FBi attention.. In-Reply-To: <20020816165552.A10525@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: Hey Andy- Interesting. This was brought up at DEFCON a few weeks ago. Seattle Wireless uses chalking to help spread the word about their network in the street. Regards, ---Matthew Genelin--- On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2197252.stm > > Anyone seen any marks around the twin cities ? I have > not. _ _ __ ---//\/\atthew (|_;enelin--- ---------------------------------------------------------------- - Matthew Genelin (612) 636-2472 (cell) - - Engineering Student (651) 636-1842 (parents) - - University of Minnesota, TC n0ynt@amsat.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------- From austad at marketwatch.com Wed Aug 21 11:55:32 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB131@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> The unlimited license is another $495, so you'd have $990 (list) into it. > -----Original Message----- > From: Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom [mailto:chrome@real-time.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 9:58 AM > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office > > > > Or, you could go with my new favorite toy, the NetScreen > 5xp firewall. > > didn't you once say there was a 10-user limit on that > thing, tho? > even a small office could exceed that, depending on how you reckon '10 > users'. (whether it's per-source-ip [in which case, how do > they deal with > terminal servers?], or per-connection). > > Carl Soderstrom. > -- > Systems Administrator > Real-Time Enterprises > www.real-time.com > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > From austad at marketwatch.com Wed Aug 21 12:03:42 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB132@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> I couldn't find the mail in rebate, looks like dlink had one, but it expired last month. Best Buy has the Dlink 614+ for $89.99 after a $20 mail in rebate. I'm thinking about returning the 900ap and getting the 614+ instead. Way more features, a web interface, built in firewall (can also act as a bridge), 4 port switch, etc... Plus, it looks cooler. :) Jay > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay Kline [mailto:list@slushpupie.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:36 AM > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP > > > I read the add that it was just $59.99. If you find a mail > in rebate, let me > know, I wouldnt mind getting that either. > > If you can figure out the SNMP thing without their windows > app, I would like > to hear about that too. I tried looking all over for > something. Even a port > scan dosnt show anything open on it. > > Jay > > On Tuesday 20 August 2002 09:24 pm, Austad, Jay wrote: > > I just picked one up. It's supposed to be $59.99 after a > $30 mail in > > rebate, but it's ringing up at $59.99. So if I can find > the rebate thing, > > it would be only $29.99. > > > > It took me awhile to get it working. I was trying to use > WEP and it wasn't > > working at all. Any ideas on getting WEP to work with an > Orinoco Gold? I > > upgraded my drivers and firmware, but still no luck. So > I'm not using WEP > > right now, but I've enabled the MAC address permission list > thing on the AP > > to prevent others from hopping on. > > > > Unfortunately, initial config of the unit must be done > through the USB port > > with some wacky winders program, which was kind of > annoying. Further > > config can be done via the snmp util that comes with it, > but I think I saw > > a gnome or kde based util specifically for these awhile > back. I just have > > to find it. > > > > Jay > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Matthew S. Hallacy > > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > > Sent: 8/20/2002 6:00 PM > > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:40:38PM -0500, Jay Kline wrote: > > > On Tuesday 20 August 2002 1:25 pm, Austad, Jay wrote: > > > > Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of cheaply? If not, > > > > I'll just > > > > > > grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere. > > > > > > Office Max has the Dlink 900AP for $60 on sale this week. > > > > This would be a great chance for those of you without AP's > to purchase > > one. > > -- > Jay Kline > http://www.slushpupie.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > From jkotek at madgenius.com Wed Aug 21 12:03:57 2002 From: jkotek at madgenius.com (Jon Kotek) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: <20020820165159.K30528@real-time.com> References: <20020820095829.M58723@madgenius.com> <20020820165159.K30528@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020821114520.M76082@madgenius.com> Ok some more details, At this point there are 6 runs of Cat5 already done, and they have a 512K DSL line installed going into a smoothwall firewall server. My only connection with them so far is the fact that I know the smoothwall part. I would like to do some sort of web based authentication I think going to a radius server. I am going to push the cisco gear since it can run as a repeater if I need to, otherwise if the runs of cat5 are fairly spread out I would be able to run a cheaper solution (WAP11) and go with MAC filtering with WEP. Now my other question is in using say a WAP11 AP would that work with roaming (I am assuming that they want to promote access from all conference rooms) and still using MAC filtering?? Would I need to update all AP's (I am doing a WAG of 4 or 5 per floor) that could turn into an admin headache. Otherwise throw out the MAC filtering and just stick with WEP and radius. I know they would like to have some sort of accouting of usage, which Jon > > That said, you'll need to do a site survey, to figure out what's actually > > going to block wireless signals. I'm not the world's expert in this or > > anything, but to do a poor man's survey, you can just grab a Cisco card > > and whatever AP, and use their 'Site Survey' software (Windows only.. > > *sigh*).. > > there's also the tool available on this page: > http://gicl.mcs.drexel.edu/people/sevy//airport/ > > which I haven't tried out yet; but since his rg1000 config tool works > fairly well (once you have the java2 JRE installed); I'd guess that the > link test tool works as well. > > Carl Soderstrom. > -- > Systems Administrator > Real-Time Enterprises > www.real-time.com > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, > Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From andyw at pobox.com Wed Aug 21 14:21:29 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: <20020821114520.M76082@madgenius.com>; from jkotek@madgenius.com on Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 11:45:20AM -0500 References: <20020820095829.M58723@madgenius.com> <20020820165159.K30528@real-time.com> <20020821114520.M76082@madgenius.com> Message-ID: <20020821140459.A30319@florence.linkmargin.com> Jon Kotek wrote: > server. I am going to push the cisco gear since it can run as a repeater if > I need to, otherwise if the runs of cat5 are fairly spread out I would be > able to run a cheaper solution (WAP11) and go with MAC filtering with WEP. Watch out for repeating - it can flush performance right down the toilet. Lots more contention, lots more hidden-node - think about using cts/rts in a configuration with that much opportunity for hidden-node (might be a good idea if the RF environment sucks anyway.) > Now my other question is in using say a WAP11 AP would that work with roaming > (I am assuming that they want to promote access from all conference rooms) > and still using MAC filtering?? Would I need to update all AP's (I am doing > a WAG of 4 or 5 per floor) that could turn into an admin headache. Otherwise That would suck somewhat. I'm fairly sure you can do the MAC table update via snmp, so it could be automated using your favourite snmp toolkit. I don't think linksys have published an enterprise mib, but I'm fairly sure it could be reverse engineered from snmpwalk & ethereal. Of course, you'd need to ensure that the "backbone" was 100% wired for mac filtering to be at all useful, otherwise the snmp read/write community string will get sent over the air, which makes an attack where someone added their own MAC semi-trivial - either that or accept the risk of that happening. Be aware that WAP-11's are very inferior to Cisco APs, in terms of RF performance (there's at least one person I know of on the list who did a linksys-for-cisco replacement, and can vouch for the vastly reduced coverage/performance - and some additional issues that have eventually been smoothed out by firmware upgrades..) -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From natecars at real-time.com Thu Aug 22 01:03:13 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: <20020820215530.8D98C1809B@wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Chad Walstrom wrote: > I believe you can just use "iwconfig " from the Linux > wireless tools packages. i.e. > > #!/bin/sh -e > # Run this script w/the first arg being the location (i.e. > # "takewstat room221" > iwconfig >> ${1:-"unspecified"}.stat > > You should get signal and noise stats right there. Sure, it's not all > pretty and graphed for you, but it's the data that's important. With my Cisco card, the numbers you get are useless (using wireless-tools v25 and wireless extensions 14, with whatever driver for the Cisco card is in 2.4.20-pre2). :( With a Prism2 card, they look ok, though.. > I wonder if the University of Minnesota NTS department has published > their authentication software yet. At the U, every student, faculty > and staff member receive X.500 accounts with which they can > authenticate via a web interface or system logins (UNIX). The NTS > department uses the X.500 accounts to authenticate wireless users by > tying in the DHCP subnet with DNS forwarding and/or iptables/ipchains > filtering. > > The user then goes to the website to authenticate. When the > authentication is approved, the controlling daemon opens up the > firewall and routing rules for the DHCP IP address associated with > that person. It's pretty slick. > > There was also an article in one of the recent System Administrator > magazine with something to that effect. Sounds like fancy nocatauth. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From natecars at real-time.com Thu Aug 22 01:39:16 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: <20020821114520.M76082@madgenius.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Jon Kotek wrote: > At this point there are 6 runs of Cat5 already done, and they have a > 512K DSL line installed going into a smoothwall firewall server. My > only connection with them so far is the fact that I know the > smoothwall part. I would like to do some sort of web based > authentication I think going to a radius server. So you actually want people to be able to walk through the building with their laptops and stuff, then? I was thinking of doing wireless as a replacement for wired, where you just set up a wireless->wired bridge at each suite who buys internet access, and let them do whatever they want with the ethernet port. If you're going to force non-roaming users to authenticate via a web browser every time they want to hit the 'net, they may not be too happy.. also, 11mb won't seem like very much if you're having everyone use it for their LAN along with 'net access. > I am going to push the cisco gear since it can run as a repeater if I > need to, otherwise if the runs of cat5 are fairly spread out I would > be able to run a cheaper solution (WAP11) and go with MAC filtering > with WEP. Now my other question is in using say a WAP11 AP would that > work with roaming (I am assuming that they want to promote access from > all conference rooms) and still using MAC filtering?? Would I need > to update all AP's (I am doing a WAG of 4 or 5 per floor) that could > turn into an admin headache. Otherwise throw out the MAC filtering > and just stick with WEP and radius. I know they would like to have > some sort of accouting of usage, which I'd still vote on IPSec to a VPN concentrator. That way, you can set up whatever kind of account you want right on the concentrator. Plus, you're actually going to be reasonably secure, which plain WEP+Mac Filtering isn't (yet). As far as roaming, as long as they are all hooked up to the same physical network, you should be fine. If you've got a separate subnet for each AP, it's quite a bit more difficult (need mobile ip or somethin). -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From joel at helgeson.com Thu Aug 22 07:40:07 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c249d3$d11756d0$2802a8c0@SECURITY> Actually, you should just look at a product called ReefEdge (www.reefedge.com) This device handles all user authentication, allows you to roam between subnets while keeping the same IP address and it will also differentiate guest users from employees - thus allowing guests to only access the internet from lets say the conference room, and the internal users can access all the network resources that you want them to. The ReefEdge device uses 168 bit 3des encryption, works with ANY access point and ANY wireless card, and authenticates off of your NT/2k/Netware domain. I have no relation to Reefedge. I just think their product is way cool because it does what everyone seems to wish a Wireless Network could do. Regards, Joel -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of Nate Carlson Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 1:51 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Jon Kotek wrote: > At this point there are 6 runs of Cat5 already done, and they have a > 512K DSL line installed going into a smoothwall firewall server. My > only connection with them so far is the fact that I know the > smoothwall part. I would like to do some sort of web based > authentication I think going to a radius server. So you actually want people to be able to walk through the building with their laptops and stuff, then? I was thinking of doing wireless as a replacement for wired, where you just set up a wireless->wired bridge at each suite who buys internet access, and let them do whatever they want with the ethernet port. If you're going to force non-roaming users to authenticate via a web browser every time they want to hit the 'net, they may not be too happy.. also, 11mb won't seem like very much if you're having everyone use it for their LAN along with 'net access. > I am going to push the cisco gear since it can run as a repeater if I > need to, otherwise if the runs of cat5 are fairly spread out I would > be able to run a cheaper solution (WAP11) and go with MAC filtering > with WEP. Now my other question is in using say a WAP11 AP would that > work with roaming (I am assuming that they want to promote access from > all conference rooms) and still using MAC filtering?? Would I need > to update all AP's (I am doing a WAG of 4 or 5 per floor) that could > turn into an admin headache. Otherwise throw out the MAC filtering > and just stick with WEP and radius. I know they would like to have > some sort of accouting of usage, which I'd still vote on IPSec to a VPN concentrator. That way, you can set up whatever kind of account you want right on the concentrator. Plus, you're actually going to be reasonably secure, which plain WEP+Mac Filtering isn't (yet). As far as roaming, as long as they are all hooked up to the same physical network, you should be fine. If you've got a separate subnet for each AP, it's quite a bit more difficult (need mobile ip or somethin). -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From jkotek at madgenius.com Thu Aug 22 07:48:10 2002 From: jkotek at madgenius.com (Jon Kotek) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: References: <20020821114520.M76082@madgenius.com> Message-ID: <20020822073914.M48368@madgenius.com> Most if not all of the office space is for one person, maybe two. So having more then one computer or a server is not the norm. Jon > On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Jon Kotek wrote: > > At this point there are 6 runs of Cat5 already done, and they have a > > 512K DSL line installed going into a smoothwall firewall server. My > > only connection with them so far is the fact that I know the > > smoothwall part. I would like to do some sort of web based > > authentication I think going to a radius server. > > So you actually want people to be able to walk through the building with > their laptops and stuff, then? I was thinking of doing wireless as a > replacement for wired, where you just set up a wireless->wired > bridge at each suite who buys internet access, and let them do > whatever they want with the ethernet port. > > If you're going to force non-roaming users to authenticate via a web > browser every time they want to hit the 'net, they may not be too happy.. > also, 11mb won't seem like very much if you're having everyone use > it for their LAN along with 'net access. > > > I am going to push the cisco gear since it can run as a repeater if I > > need to, otherwise if the runs of cat5 are fairly spread out I would > > be able to run a cheaper solution (WAP11) and go with MAC filtering > > with WEP. Now my other question is in using say a WAP11 AP would that > > work with roaming (I am assuming that they want to promote access from > > all conference rooms) and still using MAC filtering?? Would I need > > to update all AP's (I am doing a WAG of 4 or 5 per floor) that could > > turn into an admin headache. Otherwise throw out the MAC filtering > > and just stick with WEP and radius. I know they would like to have > > some sort of accouting of usage, which > > I'd still vote on IPSec to a VPN concentrator. That way, you can set > up whatever kind of account you want right on the concentrator. Plus, > you're actually going to be reasonably secure, which plain WEP+Mac Filtering > isn't (yet). > > As far as roaming, as long as they are all hooked up to the same physical > network, you should be fine. If you've got a separate subnet for > each AP, it's quite a bit more difficult (need mobile ip or somethin). > > -- > Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 > http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, > Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From ben at nerp.net Thu Aug 22 10:39:37 2002 From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ok.. i've decided I should set a date for doing the moos tower survey. What do people think of Saturday, September 7th, at 2:00pm till maybe 5pm. this should give us enough time to setup the access point, and antenna, and do a bunch of driving around. thigns we would need: Cisco AP 350, has 100mw output, which would be good for testing. several omni's.. 8db, 12db, 15db.. just to see what kind of propogation we get. about 50' of coax. a tripod to do temporary mounting of the antena. a bucket of sand, and a bungee to hold the tripod down :) people with ham equipment can communicate with moos on 147.150. W0YC - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9ZQLvflzKmtpiQEMRAjppAJ4qyQEf3G+vI7yrcqhq3em5kHS1pACbBmDH /Zc9OSkULfE9VEM5ep9G2o0= =fJwM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jeff at digitalguy.net Thu Aug 22 10:48:43 2002 From: jeff at digitalguy.net (Jeff Lehman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: ; from ben@nerp.net on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 10:27:41AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20020822104100.C32716@sarah.digitalguy.net> Count me in. I've got a 12db omni on the car with a cisco 352 card as well as a ham license and the timeframe is perfect. I'd be glad to do whatever i can :) Ben Kochie (ben@nerp.net) wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Ok.. i've decided I should set a date for doing the moos tower survey. > What do people think of Saturday, September 7th, at 2:00pm till maybe 5pm. > > this should give us enough time to setup the access point, and antenna, > and do a bunch of driving around. > > thigns we would need: > Cisco AP 350, has 100mw output, which would be good for testing. > several omni's.. 8db, 12db, 15db.. just to see what kind of propogation we > get. > about 50' of coax. > a tripod to do temporary mounting of the antena. > a bucket of sand, and a bungee to hold the tripod down :) > > people with ham equipment can communicate with moos on 147.150. W0YC > > - -ben > > "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org > > iD8DBQE9ZQLvflzKmtpiQEMRAjppAJ4qyQEf3G+vI7yrcqhq3em5kHS1pACbBmDH > /Zc9OSkULfE9VEM5ep9G2o0= > =fJwM > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From cheath at interlinkcom.com Thu Aug 22 11:04:32 2002 From: cheath at interlinkcom.com (Heath, Chandler) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey Message-ID: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43C@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> Ben, I have most of the items you are needing. I use a couple of surveyors tripods retrofitted with pipe flange that I can attach several lengths of pipe to. I also have a couple of Cisco Bridges that can output at 100mW, and run from batteries so power will not be an issue. cable is not a problem, I use 20' sections for the surveys. I also have a 12dBi Omni that can be used, and some other sundry antenna. Would be a great excuse to break out the Spectrum Analyzer to get some signal strength measurements, and see if there are any offending signals to contend with. Let me know if you are interested. chandler heath -----Original Message----- From: Ben Kochie [mailto:ben@nerp.net] Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:28 AM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ok.. i've decided I should set a date for doing the moos tower survey. What do people think of Saturday, September 7th, at 2:00pm till maybe 5pm. this should give us enough time to setup the access point, and antenna, and do a bunch of driving around. thigns we would need: Cisco AP 350, has 100mw output, which would be good for testing. several omni's.. 8db, 12db, 15db.. just to see what kind of propogation we get. about 50' of coax. a tripod to do temporary mounting of the antena. a bucket of sand, and a bungee to hold the tripod down :) people with ham equipment can communicate with moos on 147.150. W0YC - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9ZQLvflzKmtpiQEMRAjppAJ4qyQEf3G+vI7yrcqhq3em5kHS1pACbBmDH /Zc9OSkULfE9VEM5ep9G2o0= =fJwM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ From ben at nerp.net Thu Aug 22 11:29:53 2002 From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43C@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 oh.. excelent.. there are other 2.4ghz signals on the roof.. and there has been some concern about the noise floor up there.. what is the range of your spectrum analizer? someone had mentioned trying to find antennas with some degree of down-tilt. - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Heath, Chandler wrote: > Ben, > > I have most of the items you are needing. I use a couple of surveyors > tripods retrofitted with pipe flange that I can attach several lengths of > pipe to. > > I also have a couple of Cisco Bridges that can output at 100mW, and run from > batteries so power will not be an issue. > > cable is not a problem, I use 20' sections for the surveys. > > I also have a 12dBi Omni that can be used, and some other sundry antenna. > > Would be a great excuse to break out the Spectrum Analyzer to get some > signal strength measurements, and see if there are any offending signals to > contend with. > > Let me know if you are interested. > > chandler heath > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9ZQ0hflzKmtpiQEMRArosAJ9GkOFOsMwH3PBmx6Bi8yFWDaqjEQCdE+kB x0oQJUKzH0XyWp32TvAIQRc= =sp9P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From austad at marketwatch.com Thu Aug 22 11:34:04 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB152@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Well, I returned the 900ap and got the 614+. It's *way* better. Initial config is done through the web interface and WEP actually works with it, I couldn't get WEP to work on the 900ap. I'm not using the firewalling stuff, I just have it plugged into my network with a crossover from one of the 4 inside ports to my switch, disabled dhcp, and let my Netscreen continue to assign addresses. Works great. Jay > -----Original Message----- > From: Austad, Jay [mailto:austad@marketwatch.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:43 AM > To: 'tcwug-list@tcwug.org' > Subject: RE: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP > > > I couldn't find the mail in rebate, looks like dlink had one, > but it expired > last month. > > Best Buy has the Dlink 614+ for $89.99 after a $20 mail in > rebate. I'm > thinking about returning the 900ap and getting the 614+ > instead. Way more > features, a web interface, built in firewall (can also act as > a bridge), 4 > port switch, etc... Plus, it looks cooler. :) > > Jay > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jay Kline [mailto:list@slushpupie.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:36 AM > > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP > > > > > > I read the add that it was just $59.99. If you find a mail > > in rebate, let me > > know, I wouldnt mind getting that either. > > > > If you can figure out the SNMP thing without their windows > > app, I would like > > to hear about that too. I tried looking all over for > > something. Even a port > > scan dosnt show anything open on it. > > > > Jay > > > > On Tuesday 20 August 2002 09:24 pm, Austad, Jay wrote: > > > I just picked one up. It's supposed to be $59.99 after a > > $30 mail in > > > rebate, but it's ringing up at $59.99. So if I can find > > the rebate thing, > > > it would be only $29.99. > > > > > > It took me awhile to get it working. I was trying to use > > WEP and it wasn't > > > working at all. Any ideas on getting WEP to work with an > > Orinoco Gold? I > > > upgraded my drivers and firmware, but still no luck. So > > I'm not using WEP > > > right now, but I've enabled the MAC address permission list > > thing on the AP > > > to prevent others from hopping on. > > > > > > Unfortunately, initial config of the unit must be done > > through the USB port > > > with some wacky winders program, which was kind of > > annoying. Further > > > config can be done via the snmp util that comes with it, > > but I think I saw > > > a gnome or kde based util specifically for these awhile > > back. I just have > > > to find it. > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Matthew S. Hallacy > > > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > > > Sent: 8/20/2002 6:00 PM > > > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:40:38PM -0500, Jay Kline wrote: > > > > On Tuesday 20 August 2002 1:25 pm, Austad, Jay wrote: > > > > > Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of > cheaply? If not, > > > > > > I'll just > > > > > > > > grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere. > > > > > > > > Office Max has the Dlink 900AP for $60 on sale this week. > > > > > > This would be a great chance for those of you without AP's > > to purchase > > > one. > > > > -- > > Jay Kline > > http://www.slushpupie.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - > > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > http://www.tcwug.org > > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > From cheath at interlinkcom.com Thu Aug 22 11:45:37 2002 From: cheath at interlinkcom.com (Heath, Chandler) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey Message-ID: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43D@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> Ben, The range of the analyzer is -40dBm to +20dBm. I would not be connecting anything directly to it ;-) I do not have any omni/sector antennas that support down-tilt. Chandler -----Original Message----- From: Ben Kochie [mailto:ben@nerp.net] Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:11 AM To: 'tcwug-list@tcwug.org' Subject: RE: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 oh.. excelent.. there are other 2.4ghz signals on the roof.. and there has been some concern about the noise floor up there.. what is the range of your spectrum analizer? someone had mentioned trying to find antennas with some degree of down-tilt. - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Heath, Chandler wrote: > Ben, > > I have most of the items you are needing. I use a couple of surveyors > tripods retrofitted with pipe flange that I can attach several lengths of > pipe to. > > I also have a couple of Cisco Bridges that can output at 100mW, and run from > batteries so power will not be an issue. > > cable is not a problem, I use 20' sections for the surveys. > > I also have a 12dBi Omni that can be used, and some other sundry antenna. > > Would be a great excuse to break out the Spectrum Analyzer to get some > signal strength measurements, and see if there are any offending signals to > contend with. > > Let me know if you are interested. > > chandler heath > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9ZQ0hflzKmtpiQEMRArosAJ9GkOFOsMwH3PBmx6Bi8yFWDaqjEQCdE+kB x0oQJUKzH0XyWp32TvAIQRc= =sp9P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ From spencer at tcopensys.com Thu Aug 22 13:05:58 2002 From: spencer at tcopensys.com (spencer@tcopensys.com) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43D@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> References: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43D@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> Message-ID: <20020822171047.GD1416@tcopensys.com> On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 11:30:56AM -0500, Heath, Chandler wrote: >Ben, > >The range of the analyzer is -40dBm to +20dBm. I would not be connecting >anything directly to it ;-) I do not have any omni/sector antennas that >support down-tilt. > >Chandler > ***** I have a 1mhz-3mhz/50ohm frequency counter. It has an 'N' connector on it. I suspect this might come in handy. I have a tripod that could be used for whatever, and some other misc junk. count me in... >oh.. excelent.. there are other 2.4ghz signals on the roof.. and there has >been some concern about the noise floor up there.. what is the range of >your spectrum analizer? > >someone had mentioned trying to find antennas with some degree of >down-tilt. > >- -ben > > "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." > >On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Heath, Chandler wrote: > >> Ben, >> >> I have most of the items you are needing. I use a couple of surveyors >> tripods retrofitted with pipe flange that I can attach several lengths of >> pipe to. >> >> I also have a couple of Cisco Bridges that can output at 100mW, and run >from >> batteries so power will not be an issue. >> >> cable is not a problem, I use 20' sections for the surveys. >> >> I also have a 12dBi Omni that can be used, and some other sundry antenna. >> >> Would be a great excuse to break out the Spectrum Analyzer to get some >> signal strength measurements, and see if there are any offending signals >to >> contend with. >> >> Let me know if you are interested. >> >> chandler heath >> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) >Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org > >iD8DBQE9ZQ0hflzKmtpiQEMRArosAJ9GkOFOsMwH3PBmx6Bi8yFWDaqjEQCdE+kB >x0oQJUKzH0XyWp32TvAIQRc= >=sp9P >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, >Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > >________________________________________________________________________ >This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan >service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working >around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com >________________________________________________________________________ > >________________________________________________________________________ >This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan >service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working >around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com >________________________________________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -- --*--SpencerUnderground--*-- http://autonomous.tv/ spencer@autonomous.tv Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2 68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020822/2d462ee3/attachment.pgp From ben at nerp.net Thu Aug 22 13:06:34 2002 From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43D@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I was actualy asking about the frequency range. I wanted to know if we could look for other things in the range of 5ghz as well. - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Heath, Chandler wrote: > Ben, > > The range of the analyzer is -40dBm to +20dBm. I would not be connecting > anything directly to it ;-) I do not have any omni/sector antennas that > support down-tilt. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9ZSV/flzKmtpiQEMRAr78AJ4hTHRfQiGphyyVgRVcbfHIGyNBFQCfSHgA PIVTLYtwZ7NVYr7rmbhvovw= =/abm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chrome at real-time.com Thu Aug 22 13:25:51 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: <000201c249d3$d11756d0$2802a8c0@SECURITY>; from joel@helgeson.com on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 07:02:40AM -0500 References: <000201c249d3$d11756d0$2802a8c0@SECURITY> Message-ID: <20020822131900.C11161@real-time.com> On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 07:02:40AM -0500, Joel R. Helgeson wrote: > Actually, you should just look at a product called ReefEdge > (www.reefedge.com) hmm, interesting. I also see by the brochure that it will authenticate against RADIUS as well. it'd be nice if they just came out and called it a firewall/authentication server/VPN concentrator/mobile IP gateway, rather than wasting our time with 3000 buzzwords. one could describe their product in about 500 words... and I'd put a lot more faith in a company that actually came out and *said* what it did. too many words means they spent too much money on marketdroids, rather than people who make the product work well. then again, i'm not a PHB or marketdroid. Carl Soderstrom -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From andyw at pobox.com Thu Aug 22 14:40:18 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: nocat nodes... (resend) Message-ID: <20020822132635.B3488@florence.linkmargin.com> Originally sent on Tuesday, I'm resending this because I never saw it make it to the list (or the archive).. Ben Kochie wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > someone know a good web table of such FCC specified things? anyone want > to make one and put it on the tcwug site? It's pretty labour intensive extracting the info from the reports. I'll dig up the info that I have already extracted and make it available. I'll also happily act as coordinator of data, so if anyone else digs up info, send it to me. The basic FCC serach page is: http://www.fcc.gov/oet/fccid/ For instance, here's the records for our trusty friend the Linksys WPC-11: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/oet/forms/reports/Search_Form.hts?mode=Edit&form=Exhibits&application_id=98545&fcc_id=O7J-GL2411010700 You get several pages of schematics for that one too: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=114375&native_or_pdf=pdf https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=114376&native_or_pdf=pdf > hard data on the RF of AP's and cards would really be nice. Let's see if we can't start something, then. I've probably dug into about 15 products, I'll find my notes and if others research devices that are of interest to them and feed me the data, I'll format it and publish it. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From chrome at real-time.com Thu Aug 22 17:08:55 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: nocat nodes... (resend) In-Reply-To: <20020822132635.B3488@florence.linkmargin.com>; from andyw@pobox.com on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 01:26:35PM -0500 References: <20020822132635.B3488@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020822165821.M11161@real-time.com> On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 01:26:35PM -0500, Andy Warner wrote: > For instance, here's the records for our trusty friend > the Linksys WPC-11: > > https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/oet/forms/reports/Search_Form.hts?mode=Edit&form=Exhibits&application_id=98545&fcc_id=O7J-GL2411010700 hey, that's pretty nifty. thanks for posting that. :) Carl Soderstrom. -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From joel at helgeson.com Thu Aug 22 18:35:00 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: <20020822131900.C11161@real-time.com> Message-ID: <000501c24a32$a0e6dda0$027dd8d8@SECURITY> Replies below... -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 1:19 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 07:02:40AM -0500, Joel R. Helgeson wrote: > Actually, you should just look at a product called ReefEdge > (www.reefedge.com) hmm, interesting. I also see by the brochure that it will authenticate against RADIUS as well. it'd be nice if they just came out and called it a firewall/authentication server/VPN concentrator/mobile IP gateway, rather than wasting our time with 3000 buzzwords. one could describe their product in about 500 words... and I'd put a lot more faith in a company that actually came out and *said* what it did. too many words means they spent too much money on marketdroids, rather than people who make the product work well. then again, i'm not a PHB or marketdroid. If they said it was a firewall, then people will think it is a firewall and want to have it filter their internet connection. That's not what it does. If they said it was a VPN concentrator, then the morons of the world will try and terminate their remote users on AOL on the thing, it's not that either. It is an appliance that uses several technologies. IMHO, to use the words you have will only serve to confuse people into thinking they can buy this thing and use it in place of their WatchGuard. Joel Carl Soderstrom -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Thu Aug 22 19:25:38 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey References: Message-ID: <3D657CD4.A827D00E@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Ben Kochie wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Ok.. i've decided I should set a date for doing the moos tower survey. > What do people think of Saturday, September 7th, at 2:00pm till maybe 5pm. > > this should give us enough time to setup the access point, and antenna, > and do a bunch of driving around. > > thigns we would need: > Cisco AP 350, has 100mw output, which would be good for testing. > several omni's.. 8db, 12db, 15db.. just to see what kind of propogation we > get. > about 50' of coax. > a tripod to do temporary mounting of the antena. > a bucket of sand, and a bungee to hold the tripod down :) > Are you going to plot along radials, at specific points, or at random? What of other points of elevation? From spencer at autonomous.tv Thu Aug 22 21:54:02 2002 From: spencer at autonomous.tv (SpencerUnderground) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43D@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> References: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43D@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> Message-ID: <20020823023410.GH1416@tcopensys.com> On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 11:30:56AM -0500, Heath, Chandler wrote: >Ben, > >The range of the analyzer is -40dBm to +20dBm. I would not be connecting >anything directly to it ;-) I do not have any omni/sector antennas that >support down-tilt. > >Chandler > ***** I have a 1mhz-3mhz/50ohm frequency counter. It has an 'N' connector on it. I suspect this might come in handy. I have a tripod that could be used for whatever, and some other misc junk. count me in... >oh.. excelent.. there are other 2.4ghz signals on the roof.. and there has >been some concern about the noise floor up there.. what is the range of >your spectrum analizer? > >someone had mentioned trying to find antennas with some degree of >down-tilt. > >- -ben > > "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." > >On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Heath, Chandler wrote: > >> Ben, >> >> I have most of the items you are needing. I use a couple of surveyors >> tripods retrofitted with pipe flange that I can attach several lengths of >> pipe to. >> >> I also have a couple of Cisco Bridges that can output at 100mW, and run >from >> batteries so power will not be an issue. >> >> cable is not a problem, I use 20' sections for the surveys. >> >> I also have a 12dBi Omni that can be used, and some other sundry antenna. >> >> Would be a great excuse to break out the Spectrum Analyzer to get some >> signal strength measurements, and see if there are any offending signals >to >> contend with. >> >> Let me know if you are interested. >> >> chandler heath >> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) >Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org > >iD8DBQE9ZQ0hflzKmtpiQEMRArosAJ9GkOFOsMwH3PBmx6Bi8yFWDaqjEQCdE+kB >x0oQJUKzH0XyWp32TvAIQRc= >=sp9P >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, >Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > >________________________________________________________________________ >This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan >service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working >around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com >________________________________________________________________________ > >________________________________________________________________________ >This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan >service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working >around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com >________________________________________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -- --*--SpencerUnderground--*-- http://autonomous.tv/ spencer@autonomous.tv Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2 68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020822/29229864/attachment.pgp From ben at nerp.net Thu Aug 22 21:54:25 2002 From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: <3D657CD4.A827D00E@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 i'm going to try and plot anything I can. so i want to try and get as many vehicles out there to do whatever kind of testing they can. GPS stuff would help, but simply writing down streets or locations is good.. signal strength readings, anything that would be good information. - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Neal wrote: > > Are you going to plot along radials, at specific points, or at random? What of > other points of elevation? > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9ZaETflzKmtpiQEMRAl5vAJ9X4sF+GSMFbdbrBRP2cF2f2LRbpQCfd3CV Gbg1VKAFY3EoMWyy0aMdKPo= =gif2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From andyw at pobox.com Thu Aug 22 22:30:24 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: ; from ben@nerp.net on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 09:42:25PM -0500 References: <3D657CD4.A827D00E@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Message-ID: <20020822221726.C4182@florence.linkmargin.com> Ben Kochie wrote: > i'm going to try and plot anything I can. so i want to try and get as > many vehicles out there to do whatever kind of testing they can. > GPS stuff would help, but simply writing down streets or locations is > good.. signal strength readings, anything that would be good information. Since I missed the last meeting where the role of Moos tower was discussed, can you give me a brief synopsis of the intended purpose of the links from there ? Is it direct mobile client connectivity, or is it ptp links with other static sites, or is it "we don't really know yet" ? The sensitivity & power of various mobile setups is going to be highly variable, which will skew the data gathered. I'd like to see us do a little more planning about what we're trying to get out of this, so we can make sure we do the appropriate engineering. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From andyw at pobox.com Thu Aug 22 23:05:42 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: ; from ben@nerp.net on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 10:27:41AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20020822131835.A3488@florence.linkmargin.com> Ben Kochie wrote: > [...] > What do people think of Saturday, September 7th, at 2:00pm till maybe 5pm. Works for me. > this should give us enough time to setup the access point, and antenna, > and do a bunch of driving around. Do we also want people stationed a little further out so that we can gauge the quality of some decent length links ? > thigns we would need: > Cisco AP 350, has 100mw output, which would be good for testing. > several omni's.. 8db, 12db, 15db.. just to see what kind of propogation we > get. > about 50' of coax. > a tripod to do temporary mounting of the antena. > a bucket of sand, and a bungee to hold the tripod down :) > > people with ham equipment can communicate with moos on 147.150. W0YC It sounds like you've got the central site all squared away, already. I can contribute, the following mobile setup: o 19dB dish & light duty tripod mount o 13dB panel antenna o misc lower gain antennae o cables o misc client-side configs. I'll try and make sure that I have a Zcomax high power card on hand. o gps I can do the talkback on 147.150 too (N0REN). -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From dieman at ringworld.org Thu Aug 22 23:38:04 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1030076506.3702.52.camel@runabout> I can come out and help in any way needed. (Data recording, helping someone by driving them around, etc.) I've only got a GMRS license (need to do the ham thing someday, I know) so I'm only really helpful to others on GMRS if any. ;) -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Thu Aug 22 23:40:09 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey References: Message-ID: <3D65BA6D.F6402793@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Ben Kochie wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > i'm going to try and plot anything I can. so i want to try and get as > many vehicles out there to do whatever kind of testing they can. > GPS stuff would help, but simply writing down streets or locations is > good.. signal strength readings, anything that would be good information. If you're not going with topo maps, then try to gather data at intersections and landmarks, noting signal strength. That way, a map of signal strength can be made that will give a good visual indication of what users can expect. From cncole at earthlink.net Fri Aug 23 00:27:49 2002 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: <20020823023410.GH1416@tcopensys.com> Message-ID: <003501c24a62$f59183c0$6401a8c0@HPZT> > -----Original Message----- > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On > Behalf Of SpencerUnderground > I have a 1mhz-3mhz/50ohm frequency counter. It has an 'N' > connector on it. I suspect this might come in handy. Is that frequency range a misprint? A counter usually isn't sensitive enough or selective enough to be helpful in field strength measurements. Anybody got design equations for do-it-yourself yagis, collinears, and patches at 2.4GHz and/or 1.9GHz ? I have enough on Pringles cans. Anybody got a way to measure signal strength in the 1900 MHz cell phone band? Chuck From ben at nerp.net Fri Aug 23 10:00:19 2002 From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: <3D65BA6D.F6402793@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 right, one of my ideas is to take a low power telescope, or binoculars with a tripod mount up there, and be able to spot distance locations, landmarks that we can see, and have people drive to those locations and get readings with directional antennas. for whoever asked, moos tower is going to be a distance point, not local client access. it's too tall for local clients, who may not even be able to see it from the ground. - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Neal wrote: > > > Ben Kochie wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > i'm going to try and plot anything I can. so i want to try and get as > > many vehicles out there to do whatever kind of testing they can. > > GPS stuff would help, but simply writing down streets or locations is > > good.. signal strength readings, anything that would be good information. > > If you're not going with topo maps, then try to gather data at intersections and > landmarks, noting signal strength. That way, a map of signal strength can be made > that will give a good visual indication of what users can expect. > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9ZkjMflzKmtpiQEMRAqLCAJ9o8EoO5/86UMCvUGfQX+dLSQxE1wCghhQK uH1UuJ+eY4NRAI24f+22c18= =X06i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chrome at real-time.com Fri Aug 23 10:50:28 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office In-Reply-To: <000501c24a32$a0e6dda0$027dd8d8@SECURITY>; from joel@helgeson.com on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 06:21:21PM -0500 References: <20020822131900.C11161@real-time.com> <000501c24a32$a0e6dda0$027dd8d8@SECURITY> Message-ID: <20020823103817.A23863@real-time.com> On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 06:21:21PM -0500, the estimable Mr. Helgeson wrote: > > If they said it was a firewall, then people will think it is a firewall > and want to have it filter their internet connection. That's not what it > does. If they said it was a VPN concentrator, then the morons of the > world will try and terminate their remote users on AOL on the thing, > it's not that either. It is an appliance that uses several technologies. the problem with that logic is that we've gone from a situation where some people understand what it is and how it could be used, to a situation where *no-one* understands what it is. (at least not without spending 10 minutes on their site). if you hadn't recommended it, and given a brief description of what it could be used for, I never would have looked past the first page of their site because it would have looked like a complete waste of time. > IMHO, to use the words you have will only serve to confuse people into > thinking they can buy this thing and use it in place of their > WatchGuard. I would posit that those people are confused/ignorant in the first place, and in trouble no matter what they do. if you rely on marketing people to tell you how to build your network, you shouldn't be building networks. Carl Soderstrom. -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From poptix at techmonkeys.org Fri Aug 23 12:02:46 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: ; from ben@nerp.net on Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 09:38:01AM -0500 References: <3D65BA6D.F6402793@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Message-ID: <20020823114859.C15528@techmonkeys.org> On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 09:38:01AM -0500, Ben Kochie wrote: > right, one of my ideas is to take a low power telescope, or binoculars > with a tripod mount up there, and be able to spot distance locations, > landmarks that we can see, and have people drive to those locations and > get readings with directional antennas. Yay, I can just stay at home and try =p > -ben -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From erik at andersonfam.org Fri Aug 23 13:15:50 2002 From: erik at andersonfam.org (Erik V. Anderson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend) Message-ID: <1030126286.3d667aced2f62@webmail.andersonfam.org> I Sent this to the list at 8:34 or so this morning, but it seems to have gotten dropped... After lurking on this list for a few months, I'm finally going to venture into the world of wireless myself. I'm going to grab one of the D-Link 614 AP's at Best Buy. I also would like to get an Orinoco Gold PCMCIA card, as I've had several people recommend them, but I can't seem to find a place that sells them around the cities...any ideas? Also, I am going to try and build a wireless->wired bridge using an old laptop that I have, probably using redhat 7.3. Has anyone had success with this? In the past, I've used gShield for firewalling-type stuff, but would this product be applicable for a bridge? Thanks! -Erik Anderson -- Erik Anderson - erik@andersonfam.org From cncole at earthlink.net Fri Aug 23 14:05:07 2002 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend) In-Reply-To: <1030126286.3d667aced2f62@webmail.andersonfam.org> Message-ID: <006b01c24ad6$89ec59a0$6401a8c0@HPZT> > -----Original Message----- > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On > Behalf Of Erik V. Anderson > I also would like to get an Orinoco Gold PCMCIA > card, as I've had > several people recommend them, but I can't seem to find a > place that sells them > around the cities...any ideas? Why pay tax? They are common on eBay and sometimes prices are very low. From erik at andersonfam.org Fri Aug 23 14:22:49 2002 From: erik at andersonfam.org (Erik V. Anderson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend) In-Reply-To: <006b01c24ad6$89ec59a0$6401a8c0@HPZT> References: <006b01c24ad6$89ec59a0$6401a8c0@HPZT> Message-ID: <1030129689.3d668819aee30@webmail.andersonfam.org> Yeah I've thought about that...but I'd like to start playing this weekend...I guess I'm just impatient/excited/etc. The ability to get a card *now* is more important that price to me I guess... Thanks for the idea, though! -Erik Quoting Chuck Cole : > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On > > Behalf Of Erik V. Anderson > > > I also would like to get an Orinoco Gold PCMCIA > > card, as I've had > > several people recommend them, but I can't seem to find a > > place that sells them > > around the cities...any ideas? > > Why pay tax? They are common on eBay and sometimes prices are very low. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, > Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > -- Erik Anderson - erik@andersonfam.org From dieman at ringworld.org Fri Aug 23 23:35:06 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1030116617.11354.17.camel@runabout> I still want to try and 'see it' from the ground with my laptop and a unmodified card. :P Most likely not, but its fun :) -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From erik at andersonfam.org Sat Aug 24 01:54:42 2002 From: erik at andersonfam.org (Erik V. Anderson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge Message-ID: <1030112234.3d6643ea79de4@webmail.andersonfam.org> After lurking on this list for a few months, I'm finally going to venture into the world of wireless myself. I'm going to grab one of the D-Link 614 AP's at Best Buy. I also would like to get an Orinoco Gold PCMCIA card, as I've had several people recommend them, but I can't seem to find a place that sells them around the cities...any ideas? Also, I am going to try and build a wireless->wired bridge using an old laptop that I have, probably using redhat 7.3. Has anyone had success with this? In the past, I've used gShield for firewalling-type stuff, but would this product be applicable for a bridge? Thanks! -Erik Anderson -- Erik Anderson - erik@andersonfam.org From ben at nerp.net Sat Aug 24 02:34:43 2002 From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: <003501c24a62$f59183c0$6401a8c0@HPZT> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 just so you know, pringles cans are not really useable for wireless, their diameter is too small. this web page has a decent little web calculator to help you determin the effectiveness of a can-style waveguide antenna. http://www.turnpoint.net/wireless/cantennahowto.html anything with a diameter under 6.1cm will be too small. and the site recommends a 7.2cm diameter. - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On > > Behalf Of SpencerUnderground > > > I have a 1mhz-3mhz/50ohm frequency counter. It has an 'N' > > connector on it. I suspect this might come in handy. > > Is that frequency range a misprint? > > A counter usually isn't sensitive enough or selective enough to be helpful > in field strength measurements. > > Anybody got design equations for do-it-yourself yagis, collinears, and > patches at 2.4GHz and/or 1.9GHz ? > I have enough on Pringles cans. > > Anybody got a way to measure signal strength in the 1900 MHz cell phone > band? > > > Chuck > > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9Zk2IflzKmtpiQEMRAhEIAJ0QH0CgOF6zF7fUHFXixjKufSpYFwCgmnDl 858gJkaLENLPSmOTnOM7vvY= =cwRM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From spencer at autonomous.tv Sat Aug 24 04:03:32 2002 From: spencer at autonomous.tv (spencer@autonomous.tv) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: <003501c24a62$f59183c0$6401a8c0@HPZT> References: <20020823023410.GH1416@tcopensys.com> <003501c24a62$f59183c0$6401a8c0@HPZT> Message-ID: <20020823154259.GA7867@tcopensys.com> On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 12:07:16AM -0500, Chuck Cole wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On >> Behalf Of SpencerUnderground > >> I have a 1mhz-3mhz/50ohm frequency counter. It has an 'N' >> connector on it. I suspect this might come in handy. > >Is that frequency range a misprint? ooops. yes it is a misprint. 1mhz-3ghz (Elenco F-2800) but whatever. > >A counter usually isn't sensitive enough or selective enough to be helpful >in field strength measurements. > >Anybody got design equations for do-it-yourself yagis, collinears, and >patches at 2.4GHz and/or 1.9GHz ? >I have enough on Pringles cans. > >Anybody got a way to measure signal strength in the 1900 MHz cell phone >band? > > >Chuck > > >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -- --*--SpencerUnderground--*-- http://autonomous.tv/ spencer@autonomous.tv Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2 68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754 From nryberg at mendota-bridge.com Sat Aug 24 12:58:29 2002 From: nryberg at mendota-bridge.com (Nick Ryberg) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend) References: <006b01c24ad6$89ec59a0$6401a8c0@HPZT> <1030129689.3d668819aee30@webmail.andersonfam.org> Message-ID: <001401c24aee$8af48df0$3e0c0a0a@roosevelt> Erik - This may or may not be obvious, but my personal favorite computer shop would be Microcenter in St. Louis Park, off Hwy 100. I don't know if they carry Lucent, but they are about the best major commercial computer parts supplier in the Twin Cities. Broader variety than either Best Buy or Compusa and none of the usual attendant hype or annoying/stupid sales clerks. BTW - I don't have any affiliation with them - just like their attitude and depth of product lines. Check out http://www.microcenter.com for locations, etc... - Nick Ryberg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik V. Anderson" To: Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 2:08 PM Subject: RE: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend) > Yeah I've thought about that...but I'd like to start playing this weekend...I > guess I'm just impatient/excited/etc. The ability to get a card *now* is more > important that price to me I guess... > > Thanks for the idea, though! > > -Erik > > Quoting Chuck Cole : > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On > > > Behalf Of Erik V. Anderson > > > > > I also would like to get an Orinoco Gold PCMCIA > > > card, as I've had > > > several people recommend them, but I can't seem to find a > > > place that sells them > > > around the cities...any ideas? > > > > Why pay tax? They are common on eBay and sometimes prices are very low. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, > > Minnesota > > http://www.tcwug.org > > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > > > > > -- > Erik Anderson - erik@andersonfam.org > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From dave at davedash.com Sat Aug 24 13:55:17 2002 From: dave at davedash.com (dave@davedash.com) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] aironet range? Message-ID: <4EF21786-B792-11D6-8345-00039397F470@davedash.com> does anybody have a good idea of what the range is like on cisco's aironet products? I'm thinking I know you can get antennas and stuff for them, but they are expensive, what's the range like without the antennas? Does anybody know a good place to get aironet stuff? -- Spindrop Technologies http://www.spindroptech.com/ From bryan at edgar.sector14.net Sat Aug 24 14:01:32 2002 From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey In-Reply-To: from "Ben Kochie" at Aug 23, 2002 09:58:08 AM Message-ID: <200208241806.g7OI6a803640@twenty.sector14.net> Ben Kochie wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > just so you know, pringles cans are not really useable for wireless, their > diameter is too small. > > this web page has a decent little web calculator to help you determin the > effectiveness of a can-style waveguide antenna. > http://www.turnpoint.net/wireless/cantennahowto.html > > anything with a diameter under 6.1cm will be too small. and the site > recommends a 7.2cm diameter. Some of the numbers that the calculator come up with don't seem quite right. The one that jumped out at me was the 1/4 Guide Wavelength. It recommends placing the center of the connector and thus the antenna around 2.5 inches from the back of the can. The figures I've always seen used are just under half of that. For 2.15 gig HBO receivers we used 1.2 inches for both the antenna length and the distance from the back of the can with 4 inch diameter cans. For 2.4 gig I'd start with figures about 13% shorter. The ones we made for 2.15 gig work fairly well unmodified but did work better after shortening the dipole by about an eighth if an inch. -- Bryan Halvorson bryan@edgar.sector14.net From tanner at real-time.com Sat Aug 24 18:04:59 2002 From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] aironet range? In-Reply-To: <4EF21786-B792-11D6-8345-00039397F470@davedash.com>; from dave@davedash.com on Sat, Aug 24, 2002 at 01:50:07PM -0500 References: <4EF21786-B792-11D6-8345-00039397F470@davedash.com> Message-ID: <20020824173843.T2123@real-time.com> Quoting dave@davedash.com (dave@davedash.com): > does anybody have a good idea of what the range is like on cisco's > aironet products? I'm thinking I know you can get antennas and stuff > for them, but they are expensive, what's the range like without the > antennas? > > Does anybody know a good place to get aironet stuff? What's in between? -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.mn-linux.org, Minnesota, Linux | Fax : (952)943-8500 http://www.tcwug.org, Minnesota, Wireless | Coding isn't a crime. Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42 1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288 From dave at davedash.com Sat Aug 24 23:01:45 2002 From: dave at davedash.com (dave@davedash.com) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: Fwd: [TCWUG] aironet range? Message-ID: <785DD362-B7CE-11D6-8345-00039397F470@davedash.com> It'll be in a cafeteria. The most that'll be in the way is a pillar or two I was thinking of using an aironet 1200 because it looks so unobtrusive. I am willing to opt for other less expensive equipment and just add antennas. Thanks:) dd On Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 05:38 PM, Bob Tanner wrote: > Quoting dave@davedash.com (dave@davedash.com): >> does anybody have a good idea of what the range is like on cisco's >> aironet products? I'm thinking I know you can get antennas and stuff >> for them, but they are expensive, what's the range like without the >> antennas? >> >> Does anybody know a good place to get aironet stuff? > > What's in between? > From joel at helgeson.com Sat Aug 24 23:04:04 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] aironet range? In-Reply-To: <20020824173843.T2123@real-time.com> Message-ID: <000001c24bdc$5caf0ee0$027dd8d8@SECURITY> Are we talking wireless LAN or Wireless Bridge? For wireless LAN it can vary greatly depending on the type of building it's in. I could only give you estimates of 300ft indoors. For wireless bridge, you can get links up to 25 miles (Distances greater than 25 miles are difficult to align, but are possible). As far as a good source, I am the Director of Networking & Security Services at SymetriQ. We are a Cisco Partner & Reseller. I have offered to sell Cisco gear at a cost for hobbyists that will be using it for personal use. If this is for business use, there is only a 5% markup and no limits on quantities. If you're interested, just drop me a line. > for them, but they are expensive, what's the range like without the > antennas? Without antennas, your signal isn't going very far (you'd be lucky to get a signal 3 feet away)... Regards, Joel R. Helgeson -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of Bob Tanner Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:39 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] aironet range? Importance: High Quoting dave@davedash.com (dave@davedash.com): > does anybody have a good idea of what the range is like on cisco's > aironet products? I'm thinking I know you can get antennas and stuff > for them, but they are expensive, what's the range like without the > antennas? > > Does anybody know a good place to get aironet stuff? What's in between? -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.mn-linux.org, Minnesota, Linux | Fax : (952)943-8500 http://www.tcwug.org, Minnesota, Wireless | Coding isn't a crime. Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42 1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288 _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From joel at helgeson.com Sun Aug 25 17:38:23 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] aironet range? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501c24c7e$8cae0400$027dd8d8@SECURITY> The 1200 offers you multiple options for powering it. You have the option of powering it over Ethernet (power injector sold separately) or by using the inline power module on your Catalyst 4k or 6500 switch. The Aironet 1200 comes with a power supply so you can plug it into the wall, just as you would the Aironet 340. The Aironet 340 peaks at 30mw transmit power; the 350 jumped up to 100mw and was powered by inline Ethernet only (no option for a wall adapter). The 1200 comes default with an 802.11b radio, gives you a choice between wall or inline power and it transmits up to 100mw. It also has a slot for installing an 802.11a radio when it becomes available. The 802.11a radio comes with its own antenna attached. The FCC requires that 802.11a must come with non-removable antennas. The antenna on the .11a radio for the 1200 operates as both an omni-directional and directional depending on the positioning of the antenna. When placed in the vertical position (90 deg. to the radio) it operates as an omni, when folded flat against the AP, it operates as a patch antenna with a 60 degree beamwidth. ***Very important note: If you are using a Catalyst Switch to provide inline power, it only provides enough power to support one (1) radio. In other words, it will only power the 802.11b radio. If you upgrade the Aironet 1200 to have both the 802.11b & 802.11a radio, the catalyst switch can not provide enough current to support both radios. You *MUST* use the inline power adapter or use the wall adapter. If this unit is going to be installed in a cafeteria (a large open space) I would recommend using the default "Rubber Duck" omni-directional antenna. Those antennae run about $15-$20. Keep in mind that the 1200 does not ship with *any* antennas. Joel -----Original Message----- From: Devesh Dash [mailto:dd@davedash.com] Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:47 PM To: joel@helgeson.com Subject: Re: [TCWUG] aironet range? Oh cool, I didn't know that SymetriQ also sells stuff. I've been a little confused about the product, does the aironet AP come with a radio card for 802.11b? Does it come with any antennas? What type of antenna do you recommend for an indoor use? Outside of looks, what does the 1200 offer over the 350 or 340 or other brands of APs? I remember you mentioning in your talk that you preferred the equipment - and the 1200 has the "futureproofing" which I think is awesome. I've skimmed over some of the docs on the site - but since I know you've done a lot with these, you could give me a better idea :) Thanks a lot. On Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 09:08 PM, Joel R. Helgeson wrote: > As far as a good source, I am the Director of Networking & Security > Services at SymetriQ. We are a Cisco Partner & Reseller. I have > offered to sell Cisco gear at a cost for hobbyists that will be using it > for personal use. If this is for business use, there is only a 5% markup > and no limits on quantities. If you're interested, just drop me a line. > -- Spindrop Technologies http://www.spindroptech.com/ From dd at davedash.com Sun Aug 25 18:55:10 2002 From: dd at davedash.com (Devesh Dash) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] aironet range? In-Reply-To: <20020824173843.T2123@real-time.com> Message-ID: <6C83A06C-B7CD-11D6-8345-00039397F470@davedash.com> It'll be in a cafeteria. The most that'll be in the way is a pillar or two I was thinking of using an aironet 1200 because it looks so unobtrusive. I am willing to opt for other less expensive equipment and just add antennas. Thanks:) dd On Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 05:38 PM, Bob Tanner wrote: > Quoting dave@davedash.com (dave@davedash.com): >> does anybody have a good idea of what the range is like on cisco's >> aironet products? I'm thinking I know you can get antennas and stuff >> for them, but they are expensive, what's the range like without the >> antennas? >> >> Does anybody know a good place to get aironet stuff? > > What's in between? > > -- > Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 > http://www.mn-linux.org, Minnesota, Linux | Fax : (952)943-8500 > http://www.tcwug.org, Minnesota, Wireless | Coding isn't a crime. > Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42 1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288 > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, > Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > > -- Spindrop Technologies http://www.spindroptech.com/ From bneigebauer at attbi.com Sun Aug 25 22:43:04 2002 From: bneigebauer at attbi.com (BN) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend) In-Reply-To: <001401c24aee$8af48df0$3e0c0a0a@roosevelt> Message-ID: <002e01c24cb0$ece3eab0$6462a8c0@slick> I have the exact combination of Dlink 614+ and Orinoco Gold. For the most part I have been please with both. I am a little disappointed in the configurability of the access point router. I wish it had things like limiting of MAC addresses for the Wireless, and router/gateway setup like the Linksys routers. Another feature I would have liked (this is a long shot), but a Wireless pass through. Basically, I figure it would be nice to turn one of the switch ports+wireless into an regular AP (Ethernet-wireless bridge). That way I can funnel the wireless to a linux machine for VPN termination on to my main network. (IPSEC over wireless) -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of Nick Ryberg Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 4:46 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend) Erik - This may or may not be obvious, but my personal favorite computer shop would be Microcenter in St. Louis Park, off Hwy 100. I don't know if they carry Lucent, but they are about the best major commercial computer parts supplier in the Twin Cities. Broader variety than either Best Buy or Compusa and none of the usual attendant hype or annoying/stupid sales clerks. BTW - I don't have any affiliation with them - just like their attitude and depth of product lines. Check out http://www.microcenter.com for locations, etc... - Nick Ryberg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik V. Anderson" To: Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 2:08 PM Subject: RE: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend) > Yeah I've thought about that...but I'd like to start playing this weekend...I > guess I'm just impatient/excited/etc. The ability to get a card *now* is more > important that price to me I guess... > > Thanks for the idea, though! > > -Erik > > Quoting Chuck Cole : > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On > > > Behalf Of Erik V. Anderson > > > > > I also would like to get an Orinoco Gold PCMCIA > > > card, as I've had > > > several people recommend them, but I can't seem to find a > > > place that sells them > > > around the cities...any ideas? > > > > Why pay tax? They are common on eBay and sometimes prices are very low. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, > > Minnesota > > http://www.tcwug.org > > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > > > > > -- > Erik Anderson - erik@andersonfam.org > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From brent at nordist.net Wed Aug 28 21:09:09 2002 From: brent at nordist.net (Brent J. Nordquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] War Flying Message-ID: http://arstechnica.com/wankerdesk/3q02/warflying-1.html -- Brent J. Nordquist N0BJN Other contact information: http://www.nordist.net/contact.html From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Thu Aug 29 06:56:20 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] War Flying References: Message-ID: <3D6E0A6A.BA209179@nkras.dsl.visi.com> "Brent J. Nordquist" wrote: > http://arstechnica.com/wankerdesk/3q02/warflying-1.html So this guy has the money to spend for an afternoon of flying around the city at 2500'. He also proved the characteristics of unobstructed line of sight. Besides that, what exactly was his point? From goober at goobe.net Fri Aug 30 12:10:00 2002 From: goober at goobe.net (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] War Flying References: <3D6E0A6A.BA209179@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Message-ID: <002f01c24ffc$b4b3a460$1e4111c7@jennifer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neal" To: Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 6:52 AM Subject: Re: [TCWUG] War Flying > > > "Brent J. Nordquist" wrote: > > > http://arstechnica.com/wankerdesk/3q02/warflying-1.html > > So this guy has the money to spend for an afternoon of flying around the city at > 2500'. He also proved the characteristics of unobstructed line of sight. > > Besides that, what exactly was his point? > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > Geeks with way too much money/free time. Read: boredom. -- Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 "All in all is all we all are..." -Kurt Cobain RIP 1967-1994