From natecars at real-time.com Wed May 1 22:51:19 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (natecars@real-time.com) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:48 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network? In-Reply-To: <20020501022845.GA33562@botwerks.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, steve ulrich wrote: > i've taken the liberty of reserving a meeting room at the cisco > bloomington office for tuesday, may 7, 2002 @ 6:30PM (feel free to > come later if that's too early for you). ugh, the one day i certainly can't make it. :( ah well, someone wanna volunteer to take notes? someone remember to voice my opinion that frees/wan over ipsec is a really kickin way to secure it. :) -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From jtg at lucent.com Thu May 2 08:25:39 2002 From: jtg at lucent.com (Graves,Jim) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:48 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Minneapolis Map of Access Points??? In-Reply-To: <20020427134519.73551.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020422091357.A7621@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020502090435.02f6f248@pop7.ins.com> It's old, and I haven't touched this web site since October, but here's a few: At 06:45 AM 4/27/2002 -0700, Richard T Nechanicky wrote: >Does anyone on this list have a running inventory of >Access Points mapped out in the Twin Cities area? > >I have approximately 560 or so Access Points with >coordinates that I would like to compare if anyone >else is interested. > >Thanks, >Rich > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness >http://health.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, >Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list ---- Jim Graves Alphabet Soup: CCIE #7524, CISSP, CWNA, MCSE, BFD Senior Network Systems Consultant Lucent Worldwide Services Alpha Pager: 1-800-467-1467 From v0key at yahoo.com Thu May 2 10:23:31 2002 From: v0key at yahoo.com (Richard T Nechanicky) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:48 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Breach at Best Buy In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020502090435.02f6f248@pop7.ins.com> Message-ID: <20020502152214.74961.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> FYI…For those of you who missed this article yesterday, there was a wake up call for Best Buy which was a little embarrassing for them, but a good article to show the "bad" of wireless implementations. The Best Buy exposure was broke on bug traq, the guy said he just bought a card at Best Buy and was so excited to us it he popped it in his laptop and wham he was on the BBY network, and oh by the way, he had a sniffer that he fired up and started looking at the traffic…such an innocent guy. Here is the article in full - http://www.msnbc.com/news/746380.asp?0si=- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com From clay at fandre.com Thu May 2 11:47:24 2002 From: clay at fandre.com (Clay Fandre) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:48 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Breach at Best Buy In-Reply-To: <20020502152214.74961.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020502090435.02f6f248@pop7.ins.com> <20020502152214.74961.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020502162857.GH28376@fandre.com> Yea, I consulted at BBY for over a year. I talked to one of the admins there this morning about this and they almost shut everything down because of it. I think they turned on WEP and now they think everything is OK. Funny. On Thu, 02 May 2002, Richard T Nechanicky wrote: > FYI?For those of you who missed this article > yesterday, there was a wake up call for Best Buy which > was a little embarrassing for them, but a good article > to show the "bad" of wireless implementations. > > The Best Buy exposure was broke on bug traq, the guy > said he just bought a card at Best Buy and was so > excited to us it he popped it in his laptop and wham > he was on the BBY network, and oh by the way, he had a > sniffer that he fired up and started looking at the > traffic?such an innocent guy. > > Here is the article in full - > http://www.msnbc.com/news/746380.asp?0si=- > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness > http://health.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From dean at ripperd2.dhs.org Thu May 2 14:02:35 2002 From: dean at ripperd2.dhs.org (Dean E.) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:48 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Breach at Best Buy In-Reply-To: <20020502152214.74961.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020502090435.02f6f248@pop7.ins.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020502134903.00bd43a8@ripperd2.dhs.org> Interesting. Reminds me of the story i read about how a young kid walked in to a computer store with an I-pod (portable firewire capable hard disk based music player), and connected the firewire cable right up to a MAC, with the device still in his pocket, proceeded to pirate all the software off the MAC right onto his device in his pocket. -Dean At 08:22 AM 5/2/2002 -0700, you wrote: >FYI For those of you who missed this article >yesterday, there was a wake up call for Best Buy which >was a little embarrassing for them, but a good article >to show the "bad" of wireless implementations. > >The Best Buy exposure was broke on bug traq, the guy >said he just bought a card at Best Buy and was so >excited to us it he popped it in his laptop and wham >he was on the BBY network, and oh by the way, he had a >sniffer that he fired up and started looking at the >traffic such an innocent guy. > >Here is the article in full - >http://www.msnbc.com/news/746380.asp?0si=- > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness >http://health.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, >Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -- Dean dean@ripperd2.dhs.org http://ripperd2.dhs.org/ Experience is something you don't get until just after you needed it. From dean at ripperd2.dhs.org Thu May 2 14:03:10 2002 From: dean at ripperd2.dhs.org (Dean E.) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:48 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Breach at Best Buy In-Reply-To: <20020502162857.GH28376@fandre.com> References: <20020502152214.74961.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020502090435.02f6f248@pop7.ins.com> <20020502152214.74961.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020502135407.02dd9eb0@ripperd2.dhs.org> And people are paid to make these kind of grossly negligent acts, wow. I'm glad I pay cash for everything when I shop. -Dean At 11:28 AM 5/2/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Yea, I consulted at BBY for over a year. I talked to one of the admins >there this morning about this and they almost shut everything down >because of it. I think they turned on WEP and now they think >everything is OK. Funny. > >On Thu, 02 May 2002, Richard T Nechanicky wrote: > > > FYI?For those of you who missed this article > > yesterday, there was a wake up call for Best Buy which > > was a little embarrassing for them, but a good article > > to show the "bad" of wireless implementations. > > > > The Best Buy exposure was broke on bug traq, the guy > > said he just bought a card at Best Buy and was so > > excited to us it he popped it in his laptop and wham > > he was on the BBY network, and oh by the way, he had a > > sniffer that he fired up and started looking at the > > traffic?such an innocent guy. > > > > Here is the article in full - > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/746380.asp?0si=- > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness > > http://health.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, > Minnesota > > http://www.tcwug.org > > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, >Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -- Dean dean@ripperd2.dhs.org http://ripperd2.dhs.org/ Experience is something you don't get until just after you needed it. From jpschewe at mtu.net Thu May 2 14:34:20 2002 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:48 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] 256 bit keys? Message-ID: <20020502150855.A2707@mtu.net> I just walked into Best Buy last night and they've got new Linksys access points and are touting 256 bit keys. Is this a new standard, or Linksys trying to lock users into a particular brand? Anyone else seen these? -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From hick0088 at tc.umn.edu Thu May 2 14:34:45 2002 From: hick0088 at tc.umn.edu (Mike Hicks) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:48 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Breach at Best Buy In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020502134903.00bd43a8@ripperd2.dhs.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020502090435.02f6f248@pop7.ins.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20020502134903.00bd43a8@ripperd2.dhs.org> Message-ID: <1020367176.8428.82.camel@3po.dhs.org> On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 13:50, Dean E. wrote: > Interesting. Reminds me of the story i read about how a young kid walked > in to a computer store with an I-pod (portable firewire capable hard disk > based music player), and connected the firewire cable right up to a MAC, > with the device still in his pocket, proceeded to pirate all the software > off the MAC right onto his device in his pocket. To avoid confusion, can you please refer to a Macintosh as "Mac" in the future? It's an abbreviation, not an acronym. Plus, this is a networking-related list, where "MAC" is usually shorthand for "Media Access Control address", the hardware address for a network card.. -- _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ ___ _ _ __ Faster than a speeding / \/ \(_)| ' // ._\ / - \(_)/ ./| ' /(__ ticket! \_||_/|_||_|_\\___/ \_-_/|_|\__\|_|_\ __) [ Mike Hicks | http://umn.edu/~hick0088/ | mailto:hick0088@tc.umn.edu ] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020502/fb4e6064/attachment.pgp From natecars at real-time.com Thu May 2 15:43:45 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:48 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Breach at Best Buy In-Reply-To: <20020502162857.GH28376@fandre.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 May 2002, Clay Fandre wrote: > Yea, I consulted at BBY for over a year. I talked to one of the admins > there this morning about this and they almost shut everything down > because of it. I think they turned on WEP and now they think > everything is OK. Funny. *wonders if they have turned wep on on their wireless bridge next door yet..* -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From natecars at real-time.com Thu May 2 16:10:28 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:48 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Logo's Message-ID: RE: http://www.tcwug.org/logo/index.html I think that a logo with a drawing of a parabolic grid on a tripod to replace one of the letters would be really cool.. only question is, which letter in 'TCWUG' could a parabolic grid on a tripod replace? :) Anyone artistic? -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From andyw at pobox.com Thu May 2 16:12:12 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:48 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Breach at Best Buy In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Thu, May 02, 2002 at 03:36:55PM -0500 References: <20020502162857.GH28376@fandre.com> Message-ID: <20020502155730.D26211@florence.linkmargin.com> Nate Carlson wrote: > [BBY wireless gaffe...] > *wonders if they have turned wep on on their wireless bridge next door > yet..* *wonders if BBY thinks that's the problem solved* IIRC, they turn off BBSID in their beacons. So they're not intrinsically opposed to changing default settings. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From clay at fandre.com Thu May 2 16:12:14 2002 From: clay at fandre.com (Clay Fandre) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Breach at Best Buy In-Reply-To: References: <20020502162857.GH28376@fandre.com> Message-ID: <20020502205751.GT28376@fandre.com> Yea, I was there a few weeks ago and checked. But at the time I had my crappy linksys card so I might not have picked up all of 'em. On Thu, 02 May 2002, Nate Carlson wrote: > On Thu, 2 May 2002, Clay Fandre wrote: > > Yea, I consulted at BBY for over a year. I talked to one of the admins > > there this morning about this and they almost shut everything down > > because of it. I think they turned on WEP and now they think > > everything is OK. Funny. > > *wonders if they have turned wep on on their wireless bridge next door > yet..* > > -- > Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 > http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 > > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From hick0088 at tc.umn.edu Thu May 2 17:05:40 2002 From: hick0088 at tc.umn.edu (Mike Hicks) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] some wireless-relevant presentations Message-ID: <1020374326.8428.96.camel@3po.dhs.org> Wandering around the 'Net, I came across some presentations by Chris Hertel that mention wireless-relevant stuff.. Chris works for the U, and has been involved in trying to find campus-wide wireless solutions. To my knowledge, he hasn't really found anything yet, but I suppose that takes time. I've heard through the rumor mill that he's developing software for APs or firewalls that go right behind APs, but that's just what I hear.. Anyway, here are some links. The Joy of Wireless: http://ubiqx.org/presentations/ieee/ - an actual readable presentation (well, I could read it, anyway), covers some of the basics of wireless ethernet. Building it BIG: http://ubiqx.org/presentations/Augsburg/ - shorter, talks about both his involvement in Samba and wireless -- _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ ___ _ _ __ #define ENOHORSE /* Mount / \/ \(_)| ' // ._\ / - \(_)/ ./| ' /(__ failed */ \_||_/|_||_|_\\___/ \_-_/|_|\__\|_|_\ __) [ Mike Hicks | http://umn.edu/~hick0088/ | mailto:hick0088@tc.umn.edu ] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020502/7704ed39/attachment.pgp From chrome at real-time.com Thu May 2 18:18:38 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Logo's In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Thu, May 02, 2002 at 03:45:11PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20020502180246.G8015@real-time.com> > RE: http://www.tcwug.org/logo/index.html > > I think that a logo with a drawing of a parabolic grid on a tripod to > replace one of the letters would be really cool.. only question is, which > letter in 'TCWUG' could a parabolic grid on a tripod replace? :) hmm, actually I think that using something in place of a letter is a bit overdone as an artistic idea. I'm personally in favor of a parabolic antenna at the end of the 'TCWUG' string, pointing rightwards. ASCII art would be very cool. make it nice and accessible via lynx. ;) Carl Soderstrom. -- Network Engineer Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From travis at neodreams.com Thu May 2 19:09:56 2002 From: travis at neodreams.com (Travis Anderson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network? References: <63B474C9AD27D411936400508BACF93018A6CC@POPEYE> <20020501000722.GB324@sistina.com> Message-ID: <007801c1f235$e2ccddf0$0164a8c0@eris> Hello All! This is my first post, but I have been monitoring for a little while now... This past semester for my Political Science class we had to do a project on some type of community project, volunteering, etc. Well, I decided that I wanted to give mine a technological bent, and you guessed it... Community Wireless Network. I had read about seattlewireless.net, nycwireless.net, BAWUG, et. al. I thought that the Twin Cities, with its relatively upscale citizenry, would be a prime candidate for something similar. Searching on the subject locally, I only found the TCWUG. At the time it was only a mailing list, and I saw the need for a more accesible front for any potential Twin Cities network. So, I got to work on a website to meet the need that I saw. It isn't much, but I had simply laid out the groundwork of what I thought need to be addressed to start. Recently there have been changes to the TCWUG website that are heading in the same direction, I should have tried to contribute sooner! ;-) More on that below... In order to really build out a community network, it must appeal to ALL users in order to build the numbers of APs necessary to tighten the grid. While those of us with knowledge of Linux know all about LUGs and thus the newer, WUGs, the man on the street would just say, "Wah?" I really don't want to step on any toes, you all can just give me a collective shout of "shove off!", but a name like TCWireless might be better. It is the name I used to base my site on, and if you guys took it over, it would not only stroke my ego, but perhaps have wider appeal (and recognition). Just my $0.02 Anyways, I am willing to contribute the little I've got so far, lots of future work, as well as the tcwireless.org (or .net) domain. I know, its not registered yet! But I'll get it and donate, if you people are interested. Here is the little bit I have done: http://www.neodreams.com/tcwireless/ Please Note: [There is a little grandstanding for my Prof. on the page. Such as saying I have already started working with you all. I had planned to all along, but I really just didn't have the time to interface before. (Work/School/New Girlfriend, you get the idea!) Also Free Networks has never heard of tcwireless.org (yet)! Whoops!] I envisioned a centrally (democratically) controlled main section of the site, with Wiki stuff to fill out the user defined items such as AP locations, etc. In even wilder dreams, I envisioned tcwireless.org as a coop that only required helping out (APs anyone?) to join, while tcwireless.net could be the business front for anyone, or business, to buy-in instead. Well, I just wanted to through this out there for you all to chew on, since the topic of interest in an actual community wireless network came up. This way it can be talked about at the meeting if necessary. By the way, I don't even have any wireless equipment presently, so I am almost neutral! ;-) Travis Anderson travis@neodreams.com From travis at neodreams.com Thu May 2 19:40:37 2002 From: travis at neodreams.com (Travis Anderson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network? Message-ID: Hello All! This is my first post, but I have been monitoring for a little while now... This past semester for my Political Science class we had to do a project on some type of community project, volunteering, etc. Well, I decided that I wanted to give mine a technological bent, and you guessed it... Community Wireless Network. I had read about seattlewireless.net, nycwireless.net, BAWUG, et. al. I thought that the Twin Cities, with its relatively upscale citizenry, would be a prime candidate for something similar. Searching on the subject locally, I only found the TCWUG. At the time it was only a mailing list, and I saw the need for a more accesible front for any potential Twin Cities network. So, I got to work on a website to meet the need that I saw. It isn't much, but I had simply laid out the groundwork of what I thought need to be addressed to start. Recently there have been changes to the TCWUG website that are heading in the same direction, I should have tried to contribute sooner! ;-) More on that below... In order to really build out a community network, it must appeal to ALL users in order to build the numbers of APs necessary to tighten the grid. While those of us with knowledge of Linux know all about LUGs and thus the newer, WUGs, the man on the street would just say, "Wah?" I really don't want to step on any toes, you all can just give me a collective shout of "shove off!", but a name like TCWireless might be better. It is the name I used to base my site on, and if you guys took it over, it would not only stroke my ego, but perhaps have wider appeal (and recognition). Just my $0.02 Anyways, I am willing to contribute the little I've got so far, lots of future work, as well as the tcwireless.org (or .net) domain. I know, its not registered yet! But I'll get it and donate, if you people are interested. Here is the little bit I have done: http://www.neodreams.com/tcwireless/ Please Note: [There is a little grandstanding for my Prof. on the page. Such as saying I have already started working with you all. I had planned to all along, but I really just didn't have the time to interface before. (Work/School/New Girlfriend, you get the idea!) Also Free Networks has never heard of tcwireless.org (yet)! Whoops!] I envisioned a centrally (democratically) controlled main section of the site, with Wiki stuff to fill out the user defined items such as AP locations, etc. In even wilder dreams, I envisioned tcwireless.org as a coop that only required helping out (APs anyone?) to join, while tcwireless.net could be the business front for anyone, or business, to buy-in instead. Well, I just wanted to through this out there for you all to chew on,since the topic of interest in an actual community wireless network came up. This way it can be talked about at the meeting if necessary. By the way, I don't even have any wireless equipment presently, so I am almost neutral. P.S. I just saw Carl's message... Everyone is a critic!!! ;-) Ha Ha! Travis Anderson -------------------------- http://www.neodreams.com/ travis@neodreams.com -------------------------- From travis at neodreams.com Thu May 2 21:13:38 2002 From: travis at neodreams.com (Travis Anderson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Apologies! Message-ID: <00d601c1f23d$8ff96e60$0164a8c0@eris> I am so sorry!!! I had sent my message earlier, and my stupid Road Runner smtp server gave me a Relaying denied. So I sent it via Pine on my server. I completely forgot to delete them out of my outlook outbox, and eventually they got through. I am so embarassed, the last thing I wanted to do with that message was to irritate people. Sometimes technology helps a little too much... :-( Travis From andyw at pobox.com Thu May 2 21:54:38 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network? In-Reply-To: <007801c1f235$e2ccddf0$0164a8c0@eris>; from travis@neodreams.com on Thu, May 02, 2002 at 07:00:08PM -0500 References: <63B474C9AD27D411936400508BACF93018A6CC@POPEYE> <20020501000722.GB324@sistina.com> <007801c1f235$e2ccddf0$0164a8c0@eris> Message-ID: <20020502214957.B447@florence.linkmargin.com> Travis Anderson wrote: > Hello All! > > This is my first post, but I have been monitoring for a little while now... > [...] Are you going to be at Tuesday's meeting ? -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From sulrich at botwerks.org Thu May 2 22:55:07 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network? In-Reply-To: <007801c1f235$e2ccddf0$0164a8c0@eris> References: <63B474C9AD27D411936400508BACF93018A6CC@POPEYE> <20020501000722.GB324@sistina.com> <007801c1f235$e2ccddf0$0164a8c0@eris> Message-ID: <20020502223802.C10909@botwerks.org> travis - nice to have you delurk! i just checked the tcwug web site and it looks like there have been some major changes and some additions. it looks quite nice. i know that i would like to see some format that allows for the dynamic addition of content in the form of a wiki and something with a good reference section. if users can't add content, it falls upon the shoulders of an individual or a small group of individuals to create and edit the content. this tends to stifle interaction. hopefully someone who handles the web site will be able to make it to the meeting this tuesday and we can have some discussion regarding this matter. i don't know what facilities are available to the current webmaster - but hopefully something along these lines would be appreciated. i'll put it on the topic list for tuesday's meeting. hopefully you'll be able to make it. when last we saw our hero (Thursday, May 02, 2002), Travis Anderson was madly tapping out: > Hello All! > > This is my first post, but I have been monitoring for a little while now... > > This past semester for my Political Science class we had to do a project > on some type of community project, volunteering, etc. Well, I decided that I > wanted to give mine a technological bent, and you guessed it... Community > Wireless Network. I had read about seattlewireless.net, nycwireless.net, > BAWUG, et. al. I thought that the Twin Cities, with its relatively upscale > citizenry, would be a prime candidate for something similar. Searching on > the subject locally, I only found the TCWUG. At the time it was only a > mailing list, and I saw the need for a more accesible front for any > potential Twin Cities network. So, I got to work on a website to meet the > need that I saw. It isn't much, but I had simply laid out the groundwork of > what I thought need to be addressed to start. Recently there have been > changes to the TCWUG website that are heading in the same direction, I > should have tried to contribute sooner! ;-) More on that below... > > In order to really build out a community network, it must appeal > to ALL users in order to build the numbers of APs necessary to tighten the > grid. While those of us with knowledge of Linux know all about LUGs and thus > the newer, WUGs, the man on the street would just say, "Wah?" > > I really don't want to step on any toes, you all can just give me a > collective shout of "shove off!", but a name like TCWireless might be > better. It is the name I used to base my site on, and if you guys took it > over, it would not only stroke my ego, but perhaps have wider appeal (and > recognition). Just my $0.02 > > Anyways, I am willing to contribute the little I've got so far, lots of > future work, as well as the tcwireless.org (or .net) domain. I know, its not > registered yet! But I'll get it and donate, if you people are interested. > > Here is the little bit I have done: http://www.neodreams.com/tcwireless/ > > Please Note: [There is a little grandstanding for my Prof. on the page. Such > as saying I have already started working with you all. I had planned to all > along, but I really just didn't have the time to interface before. > (Work/School/New Girlfriend, you get the idea!) Also Free Networks has never > heard of tcwireless.org (yet)! Whoops!] > > I envisioned a centrally (democratically) controlled main section of the > site, with Wiki stuff to fill out the user defined items such as AP > locations, etc. In even wilder dreams, I envisioned tcwireless.org as a coop > that only required helping out (APs anyone?) to join, while tcwireless.net > could be the business front for anyone, or business, to buy-in instead. > > Well, I just wanted to through this out there for you all to chew on, > since the topic of interest in an actual community wireless network came up. > This way it can be talked about at the meeting if necessary. By the way, I > don't even have any wireless equipment presently, so I am almost neutral! > ;-) > > Travis Anderson > travis@neodreams.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From ben at sistina.com Thu May 2 23:29:18 2002 From: ben at sistina.com (Ben Lutgens) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Logo's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020503013800.GA8419@sistina.com> On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 03:45:11PM -0500, Nate Carlson wrote: >RE: http://www.tcwug.org/logo/index.html > >I think that a logo with a drawing of a parabolic grid on a tripod to >replace one of the letters would be really cool.. only question is, which >letter in 'TCWUG' could a parabolic grid on a tripod replace? :) why not put the logo in between the TC and WUG. Or behind it. Or behind it. > >Anyone artistic? > >-- >Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 >http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 > > >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > -- Ben Lutgens | http://people.sistina.com/~blutgens/ System Administrator | http://www.sistina.com/ Sistina Software Inc. | "If you love something set it free, if it doesn't come back to you hunt it down and set it on fire" -- George Carlin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 230 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020502/ea29424a/attachment.pgp From ben at sistina.com Thu May 2 23:30:14 2002 From: ben at sistina.com (Ben Lutgens) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Logo's In-Reply-To: <20020502180246.G8015@real-time.com> References: <20020502180246.G8015@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020503030040.GA8893@sistina.com> On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 06:02:46PM -0500, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: >ASCII art would be very cool. make it nice and accessible via lynx. ;) s/lynx/links ;-) -- Ben Lutgens | http://people.sistina.com/~blutgens/ System Administrator | http://www.sistina.com/ Sistina Software Inc. | "If you love something set it free, if it doesn't come back to you hunt it down and set it on fire" -- George Carlin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 230 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020502/114c104a/attachment.pgp From tanner at real-time.com Thu May 2 23:30:16 2002 From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network? In-Reply-To: <20020502223802.C10909@botwerks.org>; from sulrich@botwerks.org on Thu, May 02, 2002 at 10:38:03PM -0500 References: <63B474C9AD27D411936400508BACF93018A6CC@POPEYE> <20020501000722.GB324@sistina.com> <007801c1f235$e2ccddf0$0164a8c0@eris> <20020502223802.C10909@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020502230627.T4657@real-time.com> Quoting steve ulrich (sulrich@botwerks.org): > hopefully someone who handles the web site will be able to make it to the > meeting this tuesday and we can have some discussion regarding this > matter. i don't know what facilities are available to the current > webmaster - but hopefully something along these lines would be > appreciated. i'll put it on the topic list for tuesday's meeting. > hopefully you'll be able to make it. I tend to lean more towards the web site be static-ish content and the mailing list is where the dynamic content takes place. The archives are all indexed (ala mailman's crappy pipermail) and I'll soon have the site and mailing list into mnoGoSearch. -- Minneapolis St. Paul Twin Cities MN | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.tcwug.org Minnesota Wireless | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = 6C E9 51 4F D5 3E 4C 66 62 A9 10 E5 35 85 39 D9 From dieman at ringworld.org Thu May 2 23:30:40 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Wireless Security Breach at Best Buy In-Reply-To: <1020367176.8428.82.camel@3po.dhs.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020502090435.02f6f248@pop7.ins.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20020502134903.00bd43a8@ripperd2.dhs.org> <1020367176.8428.82.camel@3po.dhs.org> Message-ID: <20020503041003.GA29465@ringworld.org> * Mike Hicks [020502 18:25]: > To avoid confusion, can you please refer to a Macintosh as "Mac" in the Oh please. Take your religion somewhere else. Or at least gain some context recognition. -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From dieman at ringworld.org Thu May 2 23:30:48 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:49 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: 256 bit keys? In-Reply-To: <20020502150855.A2707@mtu.net> References: <20020502150855.A2707@mtu.net> Message-ID: <20020503041103.GB29465@ringworld.org> * Jon Schewe [020502 18:41]: > points and are touting 256 bit keys. Is this a new standard, or Linksys TKIP perhaps? I dont remember what effective key length that gains you in the long run -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From travis at neodreams.com Fri May 3 00:07:23 2002 From: travis at neodreams.com (Travis Anderson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network? In-Reply-To: <20020502214957.B447@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <000801c1f25e$79f4f9b0$0164a8c0@eris> At last I have revealed myself? Hee Hee, couldn't help that one, especially with Star Wars on the brain! (cough) Anyways, I don't know if I will be at the meeting or not. I still have schoolwork for one more week, but we will see. I'll try. As I mentioned in a couple of posts, I don't even have any gear... Yet. I have worked at an ISP that did wireless internet access for businesses up in Fargo back in '99 and 2000. The 802.11, 900Mhz crap, WaveLan, fun stuff. One of the guys I worked with wrote a custom auth package, that I believe is still being used by http://www.ruralaccess.net/ up in northern Minnesota for their cheapo Linux routers. It is kind of neat that back home "in the sticks" they do have wireless internet, and have had it for quite a while ('99 also). They have setup a "string of pearls configuration", with antennas on grain elevators. An omni on each one and point-to-points going between each town. Backbone connections on each end of the string, its pretty slick. Broadband in towns as small as ~150 people! (Rural Access dropped dial-up completely.) My friends that work there have all kinds of real world experience with antennas and the like, so they could be a big help. They are also starting to setup networks down here for schools and other businesses. All of this has been going on in the background with me, so it is easy to see where my interest came from. Now that it is summer, I'll be making the big $$$ again, so you can bet I'll be picking up some hardware! How else am I going to get those Mp3's to the car? ;-) Travis travis@neodreams.com -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of Andy Warner Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 9:50 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network? Travis Anderson wrote: > Hello All! > > This is my first post, but I have been monitoring for a little while > now... [...] Are you going to be at Tuesday's meeting ? -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From chrome at real-time.com Fri May 3 09:27:06 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Logo's In-Reply-To: <20020503030040.GA8893@sistina.com>; from ben@sistina.com on Thu, May 02, 2002 at 10:00:40PM -0500 References: <20020502180246.G8015@real-time.com> <20020503030040.GA8893@sistina.com> Message-ID: <20020503091734.H8015@real-time.com> > >ASCII art would be very cool. make it nice and accessible via lynx. ;) > s/lynx/links ;-) I would have said that, but the meaning is less clear. ;) and even fewer people know w3m. :) Carl. -- Network Engineer Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From andyw at pobox.com Fri May 3 10:08:59 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network? In-Reply-To: <20020502230627.T4657@real-time.com>; from tanner@real-time.com on Thu, May 02, 2002 at 11:06:27PM -0500 References: <63B474C9AD27D411936400508BACF93018A6CC@POPEYE> <20020501000722.GB324@sistina.com> <007801c1f235$e2ccddf0$0164a8c0@eris> <20020502223802.C10909@botwerks.org> <20020502230627.T4657@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020503094834.C447@florence.linkmargin.com> Bob Tanner wrote: > [...] > I tend to lean more towards the web site be static-ish content and the mailing > list is where the dynamic content takes place. > > The archives are all indexed (ala mailman's crappy pipermail) and I'll soon have > the site and mailing list into mnoGoSearch. I think wiki is a must-have. Without it, the options for getting useful information to a growing community are limited to: o go read the archives o have someone create pages Experience says both of these are bottlenecks. We can host the wiki pretty much anywhere, if there are reasons it can't live at the tcwug site. Let me know if wiki and tcwug.org are mutually exclusive and I'll offer to try and locate another host, we can link to it from the tcwug site then. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From olearysheehy at goldengate.net Fri May 3 12:29:47 2002 From: olearysheehy at goldengate.net (olearysheehy@goldengate.net) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] 1) AP in St. Paul's Midway 2) 802.11a protocol Message-ID: <1020446456.3cd2c6f8b8eed@rain.goldengate.net> SETTING UP AN ACCESS POINT IN THE MIDWAY AREA and HOW ABOUT THAT NEW 802.11b PROTOCOL? I am going to be setting up an access point in the Midway area of St. Paul primarily for use by folks on our block club. I'm going to try and come to the meeting on Tuesday. I am interested in knowing whether anyone has recommendations for AP hardware that is a)stable and robust and b) relatively transparent ... easy to figure out and set up. SeattleWireless has positive references to SMC on their site. Also, I am seeing some stuff on 802.11a protocol. Supposed to be faster. That's probably not going to matter given a cable internet connection. However, does anyone have any thoughts about whether this new protocol is more stable and robust than 802.11b? I've seen concerns raised about interoperability. My suspicion is that for a public site, it's better to choose a common denominator like 802.11b. I admit freely that I am not a techie ... just someone who is interested in making wireless access available to myself and neighbors. Thanks ... Patrick Sheehy From lomanve at earthlink.net Fri May 3 14:04:51 2002 From: lomanve at earthlink.net (Chandler Heath) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Maple Grove Freenet Message-ID: Just to show interest and contribution to the cause, I have a BR342 and 12dB Omni on the Chimmney in Maple Grove. I am on the north side and it provides great opportunity for barter trade with the neighbors. I can see the IDS from rooftop too. Would entertain thoughts on being a node on the north side. From goober at goobe.net Fri May 3 14:04:53 2002 From: goober at goobe.net (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] 1) AP in St. Paul's Midway 2) 802.11a protocol References: <1020446456.3cd2c6f8b8eed@rain.goldengate.net> Message-ID: <005a01c1f2ca$48563790$3201a8c0@jennifer> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 12:20 PM Subject: [TCWUG] 1) AP in St. Paul's Midway 2) 802.11a protocol > SETTING UP AN ACCESS POINT IN THE MIDWAY AREA > and HOW ABOUT THAT NEW 802.11b PROTOCOL? > I am going to be setting up an access point in the Midway area of St. Paul > primarily for use by folks on our block club. I'm going to try and come to the > meeting on Tuesday. I am interested in knowing whether anyone has > recommendations for AP hardware that is > > a)stable and robust and > b) relatively transparent ... easy to figure out and set up. > > SeattleWireless has positive references to SMC on their site. > > Also, I am seeing some stuff on 802.11a protocol. Supposed to be faster. That's > probably not going to matter given a cable internet connection. However, does > anyone have any thoughts about whether this new protocol is more stable and > robust than 802.11b? I've seen concerns raised about interoperability. My > suspicion is that for a public site, it's better to choose a common denominator > like 802.11b. > > I admit freely that I am not a techie ... just someone who is interested in > making wireless access available to myself and neighbors. > > Thanks ... Patrick Sheehy > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > I would say stay away from 802.11a. Sure it's faster (54Mbps) but it operates on the 5Ghz frequency, which can't penetrate walls and the such very easily. Knowing the midway area and the older buildings out that way, i'd suggest against this unless you can get every client to stick an antenna out a window or somthing of the sorts... Stick to the 802.11b range, it'll go through the walls, strech a bit further, and there's some newer hardware comming out that you'll probably want to wait/look at. (intersil prism3 chipset, USR "double speed" products) -- Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 "Watch out for that bus!" From chrise at pobox.com Fri May 3 14:04:55 2002 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] 1) AP in St. Paul's Midway 2) 802.11a protocol In-Reply-To: <1020446456.3cd2c6f8b8eed@rain.goldengate.net>; from olearysheehy@goldengate.net on Fri, May 03, 2002 at 12:20:56PM -0500 References: <1020446456.3cd2c6f8b8eed@rain.goldengate.net> Message-ID: <20020503135808.M10162@n0jcf.net> I think you will find that 802.11a (which operates on 5.7GHz) is going to be considerably more expensive for quite some time. Additionally, it's only faster over a much shorter distance and the rate will drop off much more quickly, at comparable distances, than it would on 2.4 GHz 802.11b. 802.11b is so cheap and so widely deployed, I couldn't consider anything else right now myself. Make sure you understand the terms of service agreement with your ISP w.r.t. giving access to other premises or users over your connection. The cablemodem people are particularly "concerned" about this. I would find an AP that allows connection of an external antenna easily since at some point you will probably find that you'll need to put a better antenna on it to give reliable access 'round the whole block. Chris On Friday (05/03/2002 at 12:20PM -0500), olearysheehy@goldengate.net wrote: > SETTING UP AN ACCESS POINT IN THE MIDWAY AREA > and HOW ABOUT THAT NEW 802.11b PROTOCOL? > I am going to be setting up an access point in the Midway area of St. Paul > primarily for use by folks on our block club. I'm going to try and come to the > meeting on Tuesday. I am interested in knowing whether anyone has > recommendations for AP hardware that is > > a)stable and robust and > b) relatively transparent ... easy to figure out and set up. > > SeattleWireless has positive references to SMC on their site. > > Also, I am seeing some stuff on 802.11a protocol. Supposed to be faster. That's > probably not going to matter given a cable internet connection. However, does > anyone have any thoughts about whether this new protocol is more stable and > robust than 802.11b? I've seen concerns raised about interoperability. My > suspicion is that for a public site, it's better to choose a common denominator > like 802.11b. > > I admit freely that I am not a techie ... just someone who is interested in > making wireless access available to myself and neighbors. > > Thanks ... Patrick Sheehy > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~chrise From natecars at real-time.com Fri May 3 14:40:34 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] 1) AP in St. Paul's Midway 2) 802.11a protocol In-Reply-To: <1020446456.3cd2c6f8b8eed@rain.goldengate.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 May 2002, olearysheehy@goldengate.net wrote: > I am going to be setting up an access point in the Midway area of St. > Paul primarily for use by folks on our block club. I'm going to try > and come to the meeting on Tuesday. I am interested in knowing whether > anyone has recommendations for AP hardware that is > > a) stable and robust and > b) relatively transparent ... easy to figure out and set up. Well, if you want really good hardware, buy Cisco. *G* Otherwise, Linksys's WAP11 V2.2 is supposed to be pretty decent.. they ditch the USB port, set it up so that you admin it via a web interface (no more SNMP.. *whine*), and it's got a 100mW transmitter per default (which is actually clean, unlike the older ones that you had to hack to be 100mW). > SeattleWireless has positive references to SMC on their site. > > Also, I am seeing some stuff on 802.11a protocol. Supposed to be > faster. That's probably not going to matter given a cable internet > connection. However, does anyone have any thoughts about whether this > new protocol is more stable and robust than 802.11b? I've seen > concerns raised about interoperability. My suspicion is that for a > public site, it's better to choose a common denominator like 802.11b. First -- there aren't any outdoor-approved antennas for 802.11a yet. Besides that caveat, it's supposed to be able to do about as well as 802.11b, range-wise.. you do get high speeds when you're close, but once you get a ways away, you get about the same speeds as 802.11b. For what you're doing, 802.11b is the way to go -- that's what everyone already has a card for. > I admit freely that I am not a techie ... just someone who is > interested in making wireless access available to myself and > neighbors. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From dieman at ringworld.org Fri May 3 15:27:08 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Maple Grove Freenet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020503195101.GB8796@ringworld.org> * Chandler Heath [020503 14:44]: > Just to show interest and contribution to the cause, I have a BR342 and 12dB Omni on the Chimmney in Maple Grove. I am on the north side and it provides great opportunity for barter trade with the neighbors. I can see the IDS from rooftop too. Would entertain thoughts on being a node on the north side. If I could figure out sufficient security parameters, I would be willing too. However, I can only put things in the attic, not on the roof since its a townhome. :| -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From goober at schulte.org Fri May 3 16:55:20 2002 From: goober at schulte.org (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Maple Grove Freenet References: Message-ID: <004501c1f2eb$2bc2fd40$3201a8c0@jennifer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chandler Heath" To: Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 12:38 PM Subject: [TCWUG] Maple Grove Freenet > > > Just to show interest and contribution to the cause, I have a BR342 and 12dB Omni on the Chimmney in Maple Grove. I am on the north side and it provides great opportunity for barter trade with the neighbors. I can see the IDS from rooftop too. Would entertain thoughts on being a node on the north side. > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > Hmm, that's cool. Anyone got $10,000/mo to stick an antenna on the roof of the ids? :) Can you get LOS to downtown St paul? I have a 10db omni i'm going to be mounting on the roof this weekend... and my pringles cantenna. I'd like to see if i can get a good p2p link using this thing... -- Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 "Watch out for that bus!" From natecars at real-time.com Fri May 3 17:36:06 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Maple Grove Freenet In-Reply-To: <20020503195101.GB8796@ringworld.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 May 2002, Scott Dier wrote: > If I could figure out sufficient security parameters, I would be > willing too. However, I can only put things in the attic, not on the > roof since its a townhome. :| There a chimney? you can sometimes get away with putting a very small panel painted the same color on the chimney.. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From andyw at pobox.com Fri May 3 18:14:38 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] 1) AP in St. Paul's Midway 2) 802.11a protocol In-Reply-To: <1020446456.3cd2c6f8b8eed@rain.goldengate.net>; from olearysheehy@goldengate.net on Fri, May 03, 2002 at 12:20:56PM -0500 References: <1020446456.3cd2c6f8b8eed@rain.goldengate.net> Message-ID: <20020503162934.J447@florence.linkmargin.com> olearysheehy@goldengate.net wrote: > SETTING UP AN ACCESS POINT IN THE MIDWAY AREA > [...] > a)stable and robust and Most of the commodity APs out there are all based on one of a series of Atmel designs, there's not a lot to choose between them as a rule (Dlink, SMC, Linksys all fall into this category.) > b) relatively transparent ... easy to figure out and set up. > > SeattleWireless has positive references to SMC on their site. > > Also, I am seeing some stuff on 802.11a protocol. Supposed to be faster. That's Ignore 802.11a for a while. There are a number of issues, but the killer for a neighborhood system like you're building is that very few people have the client cards, and they're more expensive. You might want to think about where you're connecting this on your home network, and what access other people will have to your computer. I should be bringing along my mast mounted WAP-11, just for grins. It increases the coverage area considerably over either long co-ax runs or interior mounting. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From cheath at interlinkcom.com Fri May 3 18:29:28 2002 From: cheath at interlinkcom.com (Heath, Chandler) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Maple Grove Message-ID: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F157@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> Point being that my elevation is such that I can see quite a ways from the roof. Another landmark would be the Plymouth water tower off of Nathan Lane. I am able to see quite a few AP's from my 12dB omni. Kinda like wardriving without getting in the car ;-) I have a 24dB Grid that I could set up and we could see if we could get a link. Wife is buggin me to clean the gutters anyway. _______________________________________________________________________ >Hmm, that's cool. Anyone got $10,000/mo to stick an antenna on the roof >of >the ids? :) Can you get LOS to downtown St paul? I have a 10db omni i'm >going to be mounting on the roof this weekend... and my pringles >cantenna. >I'd like to see if i can get a good p2p link using this thing... >-- >Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net >PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 >"Watch out for that bus!" ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ From natecars at real-time.com Fri May 3 18:29:35 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (natecars@real-time.com) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] 1) AP in St. Paul's Midway 2) 802.11a protocol In-Reply-To: <20020503162934.J447@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 May 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > Most of the commodity APs out there are all based on one of a series > of Atmel designs, there's not a lot to choose between them as a rule > (Dlink, SMC, Linksys all fall into this category.) Note: the new Linksys WAP11 v2.2 is no longer an Atmel design, if I've read properly. It's supposed to be much better.. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From chrise at pobox.com Fri May 3 20:09:22 2002 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] 1) AP in St. Paul's Midway 2) 802.11a protocol In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Fri, May 03, 2002 at 06:28:55PM -0500 References: <20020503162934.J447@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020503195536.C32425@n0jcf.net> On Friday (05/03/2002 at 06:28PM -0500), natecars@real-time.com wrote: > On Fri, 3 May 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > > Most of the commodity APs out there are all based on one of a series > > of Atmel designs, there's not a lot to choose between them as a rule > > (Dlink, SMC, Linksys all fall into this category.) > > Note: the new Linksys WAP11 v2.2 is no longer an Atmel design, if I've > read properly. It's supposed to be much better.. Ah... my jury is still out. We have one in the office. Tips over about every three days... total lack of wireless side connectivity when it goes-- ie, zero signal at all nodes... yet the wired side is still up and happy and shows no problems on the status screen. Have to either power cycle it or re-apply the setup screen to buy it back. I've got an engineering contact at Linksys who is supposed to send me a double-secret BETA firmware upgrade for it next week. We'll see. Of course, firmware for the 1.x version does not work on this version. At this point, I'm offering that it is quite a step down from the previous generation WAP11. I have not taken it apart yet so can't confirm or deny whether ATMEL is inside or not. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~chrise From olearysheehy at goldengate.net Sun May 5 11:15:57 2002 From: olearysheehy at goldengate.net (olearysheehy@goldengate.net) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Isolating the AP from local computers In-Reply-To: <20020503195536.C32425@n0jcf.net> References: <20020503162934.J447@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020503195536.C32425@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <1020614914.3cd55902c9ecd@rain.goldengate.net> THE SUMMARY 1. Thanks to all of the major geeks who have been providing terrific advice. 2. Some of you raised the inevitable question about how one isolates the local computer(s) from the Internet "wild" of community access (see below). 3. I remain interested in hearing recommendations for AP hardware. Thanks to your comments, I am definitely convinced that 802.11a is not the way to go. ==== CREATING TWO "LOOPS" THAT ARE ISOLATED FROM EACH OTHER BUT THAT USE THE SAME INTERNET CONNECTION ... Here is what I'm thinking ... I can easily put my two desktop machines on a wired network. The Internet connection thus would be "shared." There would, in effect, be: 1. One network for the wired machines (that allows sharing of peripherals). 2. One network for the wireless machines (that offers Internet access only). QUESTION: How do I make it so that BOTH NETWORKS can share the same Internet connection and be invisible to each other at the same time? Also, I get a little confused about the differences between routers and switches. Note: My wife has a laptop that I want to go wireless. I'm thinking we will all be satisfied if it is walled out just like the other wireless users. P From drechsau at geeks.org Sun May 5 11:32:31 2002 From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Isolating the AP from local computers In-Reply-To: <1020614914.3cd55902c9ecd@rain.goldengate.net> References: <20020503162934.J447@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020503195536.C32425@n0jcf.net> <1020614914.3cd55902c9ecd@rain.goldengate.net> Message-ID: <20020505162011.GA16547@Geeks.ORG> On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 11:08:34AM -0500, olearysheehy@goldengate.net wrote: > 3. I remain interested in hearing recommendations for AP > hardware. Thanks to your comments, I am definitely convinced that > 802.11a is not the way to go. Why do you not like 802.11a? The 2.4Ghz freq is filled with a ton of things that shit over the whole spectrum, from phones to baby monitors to APs. I dumped my 802.11b stuff because of this contant interference and got rid of my 2.4Ghz phones, jumped onto 802.11a and been reasonably happy since. The new stuff coming down the pipe may make me wish I would have waited, but I couldn't wait :) -- Mike Horwath IRC: Drechsau drechsau@Geeks.ORG Home: 763-540-6815 1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN 55427 Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period. From sulrich at botwerks.org Sun May 5 19:14:51 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:50 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Isolating the AP from local computers In-Reply-To: <20020505162011.GA16547@Geeks.ORG> References: <20020503162934.J447@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020503195536.C32425@n0jcf.net> <1020614914.3cd55902c9ecd@rain.goldengate.net> <20020505162011.GA16547@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: <20020505184048.A12962@botwerks.org> mike- 802.11a is w/i the 5Ghz portion of the spectrum. as such it's *much* more susceptible to loss from obstruction. additioanlly, i believe that the original poster was interested in an AP that could be shared from a community perspective. 802.11b is pretty much commodity hardware, whereas 802.11a isn't. if all you're interested in is support for home or a fairly open office i would look @ the 802.11a stuff. but for community applications and anything where you're interested in range .11b is the way to go. when last we saw our hero (Sunday, May 05, 2002), Mike Horwath was madly tapping out: > On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 11:08:34AM -0500, olearysheehy@goldengate.net wrote: > > 3. I remain interested in hearing recommendations for AP > > hardware. Thanks to your comments, I am definitely convinced that > > 802.11a is not the way to go. > > Why do you not like 802.11a? > > The 2.4Ghz freq is filled with a ton of things that shit over the > whole spectrum, from phones to baby monitors to APs. > > I dumped my 802.11b stuff because of this contant interference and got > rid of my 2.4Ghz phones, jumped onto 802.11a and been reasonably happy > since. > > The new stuff coming down the pipe may make me wish I would have > waited, but I couldn't wait :) > -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From goober at schulte.org Sun May 5 19:18:18 2002 From: goober at schulte.org (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Isolating the AP from local computers References: <20020503162934.J447@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020503195536.C32425@n0jcf.net> <1020614914.3cd55902c9ecd@rain.goldengate.net> <20020505162011.GA16547@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: <003301c1f492$819c47f0$3201a8c0@jennifer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Horwath" To: Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Isolating the AP from local computers > On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 11:08:34AM -0500, olearysheehy@goldengate.net wrote: > > 3. I remain interested in hearing recommendations for AP > > hardware. Thanks to your comments, I am definitely convinced that > > 802.11a is not the way to go. > > Why do you not like 802.11a? > > The 2.4Ghz freq is filled with a ton of things that shit over the > whole spectrum, from phones to baby monitors to APs. > > I dumped my 802.11b stuff because of this contant interference and got > rid of my 2.4Ghz phones, jumped onto 802.11a and been reasonably happy > since. > > The new stuff coming down the pipe may make me wish I would have > waited, but I couldn't wait :) > > -- > Mike Horwath IRC: Drechsau drechsau@Geeks.ORG > Home: 763-540-6815 1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN 55427 > Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself > through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period. > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > I think it all comes down to cost. The cost of 802.11a gear is still a bit more pricey than 802.11b. Add to that the cost of antenna's you'd need (or a good amplifier on the AP) to cover a fair distance. Although the 2.4Ghz spectrum is cluttered (networking stuff, phones, Amatuer TV, Ham radios, etc etc.) I personally think that 2.4Ghz is still the most resilliant networking frequency when it comes to plaster and lath walls, sheet metal siding, etc etc... commonly found in older houses/buildings. On the other side of the field, 5.7Ghz is not very cluttered at all, but the range on the average AP for 802.11a without a decent external antenna, can only reach 300-500 feet @ 6Mbps, or 50-100 feet at full speed. However, get some good antennas, maybe an amp, a few dishes, this frequency would rock for short-distance p2p links, imo. My only gripe about both is WEP. It's by far not as secure as everyone would like to think it is. (took me 80mb of client data to crack a 40-bit key and 500mb to crack 128-bit key) So, VPNs, MAC authentication, etc. is very much needed. Even turning off your SSID, oh yay, get a few packets from an associating client, and voila, instant SSID. (kismet for linux does this automagically) Just my $.02 -- Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 "Watch out for that bus!" From robwen at snakebite.com Mon May 6 12:16:18 2002 From: robwen at snakebite.com (Rob Wentworth) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Isolating the AP from local computers References: <20020503162934.J447@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020503195536.C32425@n0jcf.net> <1020614914.3cd55902c9ecd@rain.goldengate.net> Message-ID: > QUESTION: How do I make it so that BOTH NETWORKS can share the same Internet > connection and be invisible to each other at the same time? Also, I get a > little confused about the differences between routers and switches. You can do it by subdividing your netmask, and adjusting your router table. For example, make one subnet 10.0.0.x/255.255.255.0 and the other 10.0.1.x/255.255.255.0, and add a line to your router table to make sure both subnets see the router at 10.0.0.1/255.0.0.0. The router will already be on the greater subnet 10.x.x.x/255.0.0.0. You can similarly subdivide other IP ranges. No need to stick with default netmasks. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 11:08 AM Subject: [TCWUG] Isolating the AP from local computers > THE SUMMARY > 1. Thanks to all of the major geeks who have been providing terrific advice. > 2. Some of you raised the inevitable question about how one isolates the > local computer(s) from the Internet "wild" of community access (see below). > 3. I remain interested in hearing recommendations for AP hardware. Thanks to > your comments, I am definitely convinced that 802.11a is not the way to go. > ==== > > CREATING TWO "LOOPS" THAT ARE ISOLATED > FROM EACH OTHER BUT THAT USE THE SAME > INTERNET CONNECTION ... > > Here is what I'm thinking ... I can easily put my two desktop machines on a > wired network. The Internet connection thus would be "shared." There would, in > effect, be: > > 1. One network for the wired machines (that allows sharing of peripherals). > 2. One network for the wireless machines (that offers Internet access only). > > QUESTION: How do I make it so that BOTH NETWORKS can share the same Internet > connection and be invisible to each other at the same time? Also, I get a > little confused about the differences between routers and switches. > > Note: My wife has a laptop that I want to go wireless. I'm thinking we will all > be satisfied if it is walled out just like the other wireless users. > > P > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > From andyw at pobox.com Mon May 6 12:22:46 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Isolating the AP from local computers In-Reply-To: <20020505162011.GA16547@Geeks.ORG>; from drechsau@geeks.org on Sun, May 05, 2002 at 11:20:11AM -0500 References: <20020503162934.J447@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020503195536.C32425@n0jcf.net> <1020614914.3cd55902c9ecd@rain.goldengate.net> <20020505162011.GA16547@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: <20020506120708.A18812@florence.linkmargin.com> Mike Horwath wrote: > On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 11:08:34AM -0500, olearysheehy@goldengate.net wrote: > > 3. I remain interested in hearing recommendations for AP > > hardware. Thanks to your comments, I am definitely convinced that > > 802.11a is not the way to go. > > Why do you not like 802.11a? > > The 2.4Ghz freq is filled with a ton of things that shit over the > whole spectrum, from phones to baby monitors to APs. > > I dumped my 802.11b stuff because of this contant interference and got > rid of my 2.4Ghz phones, jumped onto 802.11a and been reasonably happy > since. Ack. If I was considering what network technology to equip my house with today, cost wasn't a prime concern, I had no need for an external antenna, and wasn't phased by the oncoming products making me wish I'd waited; 802.11a would be on the list. I do not think it is the correct choice for a community/block network at present. Here's my thoughts: o Most of the equipment currently available uses the section of the band that the FCC regs say can only use built-in antennae (not just "difficult to modify", like RP-xxx, MMCX etc etc), so it is difficult/impossible to add external antennae. When using an external antenna, the cable loss is going to be higher a given type of coax, perhaps forcing you to move up to larger cable: Loss dB/100ft: 2.5GHz 5.7GHz =========================== LMR400 6.8 10.7 LMR600 4.4 7.2 LMR900 3.0 4.8 (source - http://timesmicrowave.com/cgi-bin/calculate) o For a community project like this, client card re-use at {hot-spots, college, library} is a factor that is also worth considering. 802.11a is not widely deployed in these roles, yet. I do agree that 2.4GHz is going to be a very crowded band, and that the range of anything based in that band may ultimately be interference-limited rather than noise-limited. Sounds like this time has already arrived for Mike. This is one of the reasons I shudder at the thought of putting a 802.11b node on top of the IDS. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From dieman at ringworld.org Mon May 6 12:42:29 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Isolating the AP from local computers In-Reply-To: <20020505162011.GA16547@Geeks.ORG> References: <20020503162934.J447@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020503195536.C32425@n0jcf.net> <1020614914.3cd55902c9ecd@rain.goldengate.net> <20020505162011.GA16547@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: <20020506173358.GA26827@ringworld.org> * Mike Horwath [020505 11:34]: > rid of my 2.4Ghz phones, jumped onto 802.11a and been reasonably happy I went with 2.4Ghz FH based phones at home and only have experienced issues with our scary microwave oven. No nasty interactions with 802.11b yet. FH good :) Downside, the radio cost in those phones isn't cheap, and the price in the phones shows it. -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From austad at marketwatch.com Mon May 6 12:54:42 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Maple Grove Freenet Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76AB2@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Do you have a latitude/longitude of where it's at? I don't have an antenna up yet, but if I had the lat/long, I could get the direction down. I'm in brooklyn park near Xerxes and Brookdale. Jay > -----Original Message----- > From: Chandler Heath [mailto:lomanve@earthlink.net] > Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 12:38 PM > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Subject: [TCWUG] Maple Grove Freenet > > > > > Just to show interest and contribution to the cause, I have a > BR342 and 12dB Omni on the Chimmney in Maple Grove. I am on > the north side and it provides great opportunity for barter > trade with the neighbors. I can see the IDS from rooftop too. > Would entertain thoughts on being a node on the north side. > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-> time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > From sulrich at botwerks.org Mon May 6 23:47:43 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] reminder: first wireless users group mtg. 05-07-2002 Message-ID: <20020506234721.A14380@botwerks.org> all- just a reminder that the first face to face meeting for the group is this tuesday. it's coming up on midnight here so i don't know whether or not i should just say tonight or tuesday ... andy warner suggested a loose agenda which looks something like this: *AGENDA* -------- * introductions - meet the local wireless fans, put a face to the name and the postings. find out who's local to you. * discussion of practical group goals - with a brief discussion of the group goals. with a brief discussion of what other community wireless groups are doing for comparison and to kick start the thought process. evangelical goals, etc. * discussion of current hot-spots and interesting nodes - likely an outgrowth of the previous element where would community wireless be well used and * show and tell - andy warner has been gracious enough to do a show and tell of his diecast wireless box, others with interesting projects are welcome to chime in and bring them. - discussion of antenna diversity on the cisco platforms (if time permits and people are interested) * wrap-up and discussion regarding the next meeting. the meeting place is the cisco bloomington office in the minnesota room. details below. if you have any questions please feel free to contact me, either via email (sulrich@botwerks.org) or phone. (612.940.8798) *LOGISTICS* ----------- time ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 6:30 PM - tuesday, may 7, 2002 location ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cisco systems - bloomington office international plaza 7900 international drive suite 400 bloomington, mn 55425 directions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- from the north -------------- * take 35w south * take 494 east to the 34th avenue exit, turn right * immediately veer right and take the next right at the light onto 80th street. * take the next immediate right onto international drive. from the south -------------- just like coming from the north except you take 35w north to 494. from the (east|west) -------------------- reaching 35w and following the above directions is left as an exercise for the reader/attendee. after you make it onto international drive ... * international plaza is the large blue glass building to your left. * you may park in the ramp and take the ramp elevators to level 1. proceed through the glass doors to your right and down the lobby foyer the main bank of elevators. take the elevator to level 4 note: you will need to sign in at the guard desk and indicate that you are there for the wireless users group meeting in the cisco office in suite 400. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020506/fbb487bd/attachment.pgp From tanner at real-time.com Tue May 7 21:41:00 2002 From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] IRC Message-ID: <20020507212806.A25233@real-time.com> Setup irc channel. irc.openprojects.net #tcwug Like #tclug, good place to exchange ideas. -- Minneapolis St. Paul Twin Cities MN | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.tcwug.org Minnesota Wireless | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = 6C E9 51 4F D5 3E 4C 66 62 A9 10 E5 35 85 39 D9 From goober at goobe.net Wed May 8 09:49:03 2002 From: goober at goobe.net (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Thoughts from show and tell Message-ID: <000d01c1f64c$c211ac10$3201a8c0@jennifer> I was thinking about andy's design for his WAP11 on a pole, and it seems like a pretty good idea, but i had an afterthought on my way home. How will you deal with condensation with the humid summers that minnesota is good for? Just throw some silica gel packets in there? Or won't that be enough? I wouldn't expect too much condensation to get into that little box, but water + PoE (or electronics in general) is just bad... heh. -- Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 "Watch out for that bus!" From andyw at pobox.com Wed May 8 10:23:07 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Thoughts from show and tell In-Reply-To: <000d01c1f64c$c211ac10$3201a8c0@jennifer>; from goober@goobe.net on Tue, May 07, 2002 at 11:56:47PM -0500 References: <000d01c1f64c$c211ac10$3201a8c0@jennifer> Message-ID: <20020508101316.A25442@florence.linkmargin.com> Alex Hartman wrote: > I was thinking about andy's design for his WAP11 on a pole, and it seems > like a pretty good idea, but i had an afterthought on my way home. How will > you deal with condensation with the humid summers that minnesota is good > for? Just throw some silica gel packets in there? Or won't that be enough? I > wouldn't expect too much condensation to get into that little box, but water > + PoE (or electronics in general) is just bad... heh. Time will tell, I guess. I figure there are two approaches to this problem: o sealing the case & filling it with dry air/gas. o venting. I went with the venting approach. As long as humidity is non-condensing, it shouldn't really matter that much. Assuming the unit lasts through the summer, I can disassemble it in the fall and see how the electronics inside has survived. I'll try and take photos this week and install the darn thing this weekend. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From goober at schulte.org Wed May 8 13:32:44 2002 From: goober at schulte.org (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Ebay fun... Message-ID: <000e01c1f6bd$9fd8c540$3201a8c0@jennifer> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2022765977 For those interested in doing some p2p stuff, he's got 10 of them, and a $70/ea that'd do some nice infrastructure for a part of the cities... -- Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 "Watch out for that bus!" From andyw at pobox.com Wed May 8 15:44:50 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. Message-ID: <20020508153437.B25585@florence.linkmargin.com> It was fun to put a face & voice to some of the names on the list, and meet some lurkers at last night's meeting. Thanks to everyone that came along, and special thanks to Steve for his catalytic properties. Last night I volunteered to kick off a thread or two here for people interested in building one or both of the following: 1. A metro-wide network, capable of moving bits independant of existing wired networks. The goal is to create a stand-alone, free, network capable of moving large numbers of bits around the Twin Cities; including areas where broad-band is not a viable option. This network may host services such as ftp servers, gaming servers, etc etc. 2. Coordinated hot-spot deployment. The goal is to provide wireless Internet access throughout the Twin Cities. Upstream connection from the hot-spot to the Internet may be wired or wireless. Provide a common authentication interface, and standardised client configs. Can we get a roll-call of people interested in contributing time, know-how, bandwidth, enthusiasm, to groups working towards each goal ? If people want to answer to the list, or to me unicast, I'll tabulate the replies. Then each group can go about (re)defining and attacking their problem as they see fit. I'd like to see as much content as possible stay on this list, just so everyone can learn, and so we don't make little ivory towers. I'll kick things off by saying that I would like to play in sandbox #2 to begin with. Questions/complaints -> me. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From dieman at ringworld.org Wed May 8 17:01:27 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020508153437.B25585@florence.linkmargin.com> References: <20020508153437.B25585@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020508215520.GF15352@ringworld.org> * Andy Warner [020508 15:47]: > 1. A metro-wide network, capable of > moving bits independant of existing > wired networks. Very interested. Want to assist in organization and specifics. > 2. Coordinated hot-spot deployment. > > The goal is to provide wireless Internet > access throughout the Twin Cities. Upstream > connection from the hot-spot to the Internet Going to look at Spuntik and what they are doing at the moment. Might be neat to fork what they are doing into something we can just give to people on a cd to boot into a machine with a Intersil chipset card. Downside: my prism 2.5 PCI card was DOA. General Nanosystems is out of replacements and refunded me fully. I can't easily test the software yet. It might be cool to get something like Spuntik working on a soekris (www.soekris.com) embedded machine with an intersil card. The net4251 could be very interesting for edge networks under #1 and could be a good starting point for hotspots that cant have a pc sitting there. Its a spendy item, however ($237 for the board) They also have a minipci socket and 2 ethernet. But they do power over ethernet too. :) The case actually has holes for N jacks too. neat. > I'll kick things off by saying that I would like to > play in sandbox #2 to begin with. I think #2 is cool, but #1 is 'easier' in some cases to do because of the non-need to actually share internet bandwidth. However, the techincal diffucultities are pretty hard. Would be interesting if we could get enough hotspots going to be within a 10min drive of anywhere in the metro. I worry that dispersion wont be even enough, however. But, if we get to a certain point, #1 would be cool to do then. Anyhow, must get back to work. -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From kritchie at kritchie.org Wed May 8 18:03:52 2002 From: kritchie at kritchie.org (Kent Ritchie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020508153437.B25585@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 May 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > 2. Coordinated hot-spot deployment. I'm interested in #2. I have an Apple Airport (original) and a Linksys BEFW11S4 (ver 1) as well as an old dual P100 server that could be used to provide service near my apartment. If I can get an outdoor antenna mounted high enough, I could possible service the park (Lowry Hill Park?) about a half a block away. I might even be willing to locate one of my access points up the street at Sebastian Joe's if someone was willing to pick up the bandwidth - I know there are companies upstairs with Internet connectivity. -- Kent Ritchie kritchie@kritchie.org From sulrich at botwerks.org Wed May 8 22:21:49 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020508153437.B25585@florence.linkmargin.com> References: <20020508153437.B25585@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020508214247.A15604@botwerks.org> when last we saw our hero (Wednesday, May 08, 2002), Andy Warner was madly tapping out: {snipped - misc previous correspondence} > 1. A metro-wide network, capable of moving bits independant of existing > wired networks. > > The goal is to create a stand-alone, free, network capable of moving > large numbers of bits around the Twin Cities; including areas where > broad-band is not a viable option. > > This network may host services such as ftp servers, gaming servers, etc > etc. > > 2. Coordinated hot-spot deployment. > > The goal is to provide wireless Internet access throughout the Twin > Cities. Upstream connection from the hot-spot to the Internet may be > wired or wireless. Provide a common authentication interface, and > standardised client configs. > > Can we get a roll-call of people interested in contributing > time, know-how, bandwidth, enthusiasm, to groups > working towards each goal ? > > If people want to answer to the list, or to me unicast, I'll > tabulate the replies. Then each group can go about (re)defining > and attacking their problem as they see fit. I'd like to see > as much content as possible stay on this list, just so everyone > can learn, and so we don't make little ivory towers. > > I'll kick things off by saying that I would like to play in sandbox #2 > to begin with. while i think that in the long run - door #1 is a bit more interesting (read: challenging) to me from an engineering perspective. i think that option #2 is the low hanging fruit that people with a diverse range of skillsets can actively participate in. i'm happy to lend energies to either of the above projects, however i think that we'll see the greatest satisfaction from door #2 more immediately and we'll have an excuse to move to door #1 down the line. {snipped - .signatures ...} -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From mgenelin at cs.umn.edu Wed May 8 22:47:26 2002 From: mgenelin at cs.umn.edu (Matthew Genelin) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:51 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020508153437.B25585@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: Hey Andy- I think I qualify for #1. I am more then interested in getting to know a group of folks' interested in building a wireless network. I *may* be able to get us onto a few rooftops here at the University of Minnesota. I have a number of connections to the networking folks.... I am just a student here, so everything is hobby for me. =) Regards, ---Matthew Genelin--- _ _ __ ---//\/\atthew (|_;enelin--- ---------------------------------------------------------------- - Matthew Genelin (612) 636-2472 (cell) - - Engineering Student (651) 636-1842 (parents) - - University of Minnesota, TC n0ynt@amsat.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, but when they lit a fire in the craft, it sank, proving one again that you can't have your kayak and heat it, too. - Jim Ley's Joke List On Wed, 8 May 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > It was fun to put a face & voice to some > of the names on the list, and meet some > lurkers at last night's meeting. Thanks > to everyone that came along, and special > thanks to Steve for his catalytic properties. > > Last night I volunteered to kick off a thread > or two here for people interested in building > one or both of the following: > > 1. A metro-wide network, capable of > moving bits independant of existing > wired networks. > > The goal is to create a stand-alone, > free, network capable of moving large > numbers of bits around the Twin Cities; > including areas where broad-band is not > a viable option. > > This network may host services such as > ftp servers, gaming servers, etc etc. > > 2. Coordinated hot-spot deployment. > > The goal is to provide wireless Internet > access throughout the Twin Cities. Upstream > connection from the hot-spot to the Internet > may be wired or wireless. Provide a common > authentication interface, and standardised > client configs. > > Can we get a roll-call of people interested in contributing > time, know-how, bandwidth, enthusiasm, to groups > working towards each goal ? > > If people want to answer to the list, or to me unicast, I'll > tabulate the replies. Then each group can go about (re)defining > and attacking their problem as they see fit. I'd like to see > as much content as possible stay on this list, just so everyone > can learn, and so we don't make little ivory towers. > > I'll kick things off by saying that I would like to > play in sandbox #2 to begin with. > > Questions/complaints -> me. > -- > andyw@pobox.com > > Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > From v0key at yahoo.com Wed May 8 23:17:02 2002 From: v0key at yahoo.com (Richard T Nechanicky) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020508153437.B25585@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020509040304.65614.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> I am in for option #2....I have a couple directionals and a couple omnis to lend to the cause. I am all cisco on my end...let me know what the next steps are and how I can help. Rich --- Andy Warner wrote: > It was fun to put a face & voice to some > of the names on the list, and meet some > lurkers at last night's meeting. Thanks > to everyone that came along, and special > thanks to Steve for his catalytic properties. > > Last night I volunteered to kick off a thread > or two here for people interested in building > one or both of the following: > > 1. A metro-wide network, capable of > moving bits independant of existing > wired networks. > > The goal is to create a stand-alone, > free, network capable of moving large > numbers of bits around the Twin Cities; > including areas where broad-band is not > a viable option. > > This network may host services such as > ftp servers, gaming servers, etc etc. > > 2. Coordinated hot-spot deployment. > > The goal is to provide wireless Internet > access throughout the Twin Cities. Upstream > connection from the hot-spot to the Internet > may be wired or wireless. Provide a common > authentication interface, and standardised > client configs. > > Can we get a roll-call of people interested in > contributing > time, know-how, bandwidth, enthusiasm, to > groups > working towards each goal ? > > If people want to answer to the list, or to me > unicast, I'll > tabulate the replies. Then each group can go about > (re)defining > and attacking their problem as they see fit. I'd > like to see > as much content as possible stay on this list, just > so everyone > can learn, and so we don't make little ivory towers. > > I'll kick things off by saying that I would like to > play in sandbox #2 to begin with. > > Questions/complaints -> me. > -- > andyw@pobox.com > > Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) > 575-5634 > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th! http://shopping.yahoo.com From sulrich at botwerks.org Thu May 9 00:34:34 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] tcwug meeting notes 07-May-2002 Message-ID: <20020508235309.A15625@botwerks.org> all- a few notes from the meeting last night. i know that i enjoyed the meeting and it was nice to be able to put a face to the posters and catch up on some of the local network gossip. i hope others enjoyed it as well. without further ado - i've coalesced my notes and dropped them into this email. my apologies for errors and omissions - hopefully conversation elements have been attributed appropriately. AGENDA ------ * introductions just like it sounds - people introducing themselves and explaining what their interests are and backgrounds. .as a point of reference we had 43 people in attendance. * discussion of practical group goals this sparked a lively discussion with comments on the part of several parties. to spearhead the discussion andy warner kicked it off with the suggestion of getting a feel for the "center of (mass|gravity)" of the group. an explaination by bob tanner regarding what several of his initial objectives were with the start-up of the group as well as some history regarding real-time's involvement in the local wireless arena (dabbling in breezecom gear - migration to cisco gear, lessons learned, at times painfully, etc.) this culminated in the polling of the room for 2 primary goals and 1 ancillary goal <- which fits in nicely with the above goals primary goals described - creation of an independent network infrastructure which is independent of current copper infrastructure or privately augmented. very much in line with the goals of Seattle Wireless[1] or PTP (personal teleco project)[2]. - addressing the needs of local hot-spots and providing consistent configuration and setup for people to use in a roaming fashion. this is more in line with the goals of the NYC wireless folks[3]. ancillary goal described - simply be a group that gets together on a monthly basis for the dissemination of wireless techie type information. cookies, soda, gossip, demos, etc.. after some circular discussion on the matter it was suggested that we take this to the list and andy was elected to drive this forward within the mailing list and we'd take it from there. * discussion of current hot-spots and interesting nodes while this agenda item never received formal attention within the scope of the meeting it was broached in a rather interesting fashion. matt hallacy had some kismet maps that he'd created in the process of his netstumblings. these pointed out that there are a fair number of poorly configured nodes out there with a wide range of coverage. if you're interested in these maps you might want to email matt regarding this directly[4]. +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | note: | | since he's placed this notification on the web page | | where these were i'm going to assume that he won't mind me posting | | this on the list - but you know what they say about assuming ... | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ * show and tell andy was nice enough to show us his wap11 put in a die-cast box as well as provide a discussion of some of his design considerations. for those of you that weren't able to make the meeting and see the h/w while it made it's progression around the room i believe that andy will be posting pictures. chris elmquist also brought in an an omni that he'd modified to survive exposure to sun, rain, etc. * wrap up and planning for the next meeting the last item on our agenda was pretty quickly dispatched. i've extended the offer to host the meetings at the cisco facility as long as the facilities addressed the needs of the group. if there is a need for additional room, we'll investigate alternative locations. since i travel a fair amount i've secured backup for the meetings in the form of william reich another cisco employee who can handle the logistics associated with hosting the meetings. the group agreed that the first tuesday of each month was the most convenient for meeting times. everyone marks their calendars/pda's and proceeds to tell their friends. * meeting adjourned. socializing ensues... misc notes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- there are a variety of different group related perks which bear investigation as well as items for discussion at the next meeting. i scribbled some notes. regarding these items and they might be topics for further conversation. (in person or on the mailing list) presentation discussions - wireless security discussion - antenna design - apartment dweller antenna designs - poe group discounts - books - ORA and others have group discounts available for user groups like tcwug. perhaps someone would like to volunteer to track this for the next meeting and we can place an order or something along those lines. - hardware - antennas, cable, connectors, etc. is there anything that folks are particularly keen on buying in a bulk fashion? catalog of member nodes. - mapdev - setup a group node map for tracking t.c. hot spots and their configurations. much like what the ptp folks are doing? - research wiki type collaborative tools - a topic of brief conversation during the meeting was the notion of sharing information in a collaborative fashion that didn't place any given party at the focal point for content insertion. (i was assigned the job of researching our options here - suggestions welcome.) misc references --------------- [1] - http://www.seattlewireless.net [2] - http://www.personaltelco.net [3] - http://www.nycwireless.net [4] - map url - http://www.techmonkeys.org/~poptix/802.11/ - contact matt for more information. matt's email: poptix@poptix.net -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From mgenelin at cs.umn.edu Thu May 9 01:38:10 2002 From: mgenelin at cs.umn.edu (Matthew Genelin) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020508214247.A15604@botwerks.org> Message-ID: Hey Steve- You're right. It seems I glossed over the need for immediate satisfaction as a core requirement for a hobby-project. Let's begin traveling down option #2. There might be some interesting engineering challenges creating "hotspots" as well. Perhaps we could get more people and companies on board to setup psudo-public "hotspots" if we guaranteed that the users wouldn't use up too much bandwidth. Does this sort of promise lead the group down a path of setting up our own virtual-tunneled network? That right there sounds like a good engineering project. Setting up each node and maintaining them is also a worthwhile endevour for members of TC-WUG not interested in the "way-too-techie" side of things. Okie, that's one suggestion. How does the rest of the group see it? > i'm happy to lend energies to either of the above projects, however i > think that we'll see the greatest satisfaction from door #2 more > immediately and we'll have an excuse to move to door #1 down the line. > [much omitted here and there...] Regards, ---Matthew Genelin--- _ _ __ ---//\/\atthew (|_;enelin--- ---------------------------------------------------------------- - Matthew Genelin (612) 636-2472 (cell) - - Engineering Student (651) 636-1842 (parents) - - University of Minnesota, TC n0ynt@amsat.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, but when they lit a fire in the craft, it sank, proving one again that you can't have your kayak and heat it, too. - Jim Ley's Joke List From chrome at real-time.com Thu May 9 06:18:12 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020508153437.B25585@florence.linkmargin.com>; from andyw@pobox.com on Wed, May 08, 2002 at 03:34:37PM -0500 References: <20020508153437.B25585@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020509061211.B29375@real-time.com> On Wed, May 08, 2002 at 03:34:37PM -0500, Andy Warner wrote: > It was fun to put a face & voice to some > of the names on the list, and meet some > lurkers at last night's meeting. agreed. much thanks to everyone who showed up. :) >Thanks > to everyone that came along, and special > thanks to Steve for his catalytic properties. hooray for Steve! :) > Can we get a roll-call of people interested in contributing > time, know-how, bandwidth, enthusiasm, to groups > working towards each goal ? I personally live a long way out of the Cities (Buffalo); so directly connecting with a TC wireless network isn't really a likely option anytime soon. however, I do have a stack of p75-p100 computers down in my basement that I'll happily sell/swap for $10/ea; and I have some small experience with firewalls and routers, so I'll be happy to help people set up firewalls/DMZ networks for their wireless gear. I do actually have an 80-foot tower that I have free access to and use of. however, it's a silo on a farm in Mayer (40 mi. west of the 'Cities); so the utility of it is a bit limited at the moment. ;) Carl Soderstrom -- Network Engineer Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From austad at marketwatch.com Thu May 9 10:19:01 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> > I do actually have an 80-foot tower that I have free > access to and use of. however, it's a silo on a farm in Mayer > (40 mi. west of the 'Cities); so the utility of it is a bit > limited at the moment. ;) Well, the guy that runs ingenious-nets.com(or .net, forget which) told me that he has a 23 mile 802.11b link, using only a 24db directional on each end, no amplifiers. After 23 miles, you start running into curvature of the earth issues, but with an antenna that is 80 feet high, you might be able to squeeze some more range out of it. Plus, you can toss an amp on each end also. Say we did build a sweet wireless network... It's obviously going to have multiple connections to the internet. So how do we plan on doing routing? Do we want people to go out the nearest internet connection? Or, to get more complicated, out the *best* internet connection? Also, I know some of you are looking at Sputnik. I think to make the free version work, everyone using it needs to have a sputnik account (created through their website). That's not really a problem, but then you don't really have any way to manage the access yourself on the network. If someone has a sputnik account, they get in. But, I don't think Sputnik boxes have the ability to route between each other either, they are simply meant as a NAT device that provides internet access via a captive gateway, and nothing more. The commercial version of it looks to be more flexible, but it obviously costs money. As far as captive gateways go, I've mentioned this on the TCLUG list... Netscreen makes a cheap consumer model of their firewall called the 5XP. It lists for $495, but I've seen it on ebay cheaper and through resellers for less (search google for netscreen, and check out the ads on the right side). The 5XP has captive gateway functionality (web and telnet for sure, possibly ssh), it can authenticate via a local database, RADIUS, or LDAP server. Almost everything on it is handled by an ASIC, including IPSec tunnels. Yes, you can set up tunnels between Netscreens, and they will also talk to FreeSWAN or anything that speaks standard IPSec. Also, they have software for it that supports OSPF and BGP. I have one at home, and I'd sleep with it under my pillow if I didn't have to unplug it from the network first. Jay From gje at parrotheaven.com Thu May 9 10:19:09 2002 From: gje at parrotheaven.com (Greg Evans) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Orinoco gold locally? Message-ID: <20020509145649.GH28077@parrotheaven.com> Has anyone seen the Orinoco Gold pc card for sale locally in the Twin Cities? Thanks,m -- /* Greg Evans, Bloomington, MN., USA - gje@parrotheaven.com */ ------------- "Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -- George Bernard Shaw From asim_beg at hotmail.com Thu May 9 10:51:40 2002 From: asim_beg at hotmail.com (Asim Beg (Hotmail)) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Orinoco gold locally? References: <20020509145649.GH28077@parrotheaven.com> Message-ID: Greg, I bought my Orinoco Gold from the U of M bookstore (Minneapolis main campus) back in January. I think you have to be affiliated with the University to be able to buy it. I am not sure. I am sure we have a tcwug member who is also a U student, staff or faculty who can help you get one. Let me know if you wanted me to help you buy one. Asim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Evans" To: Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 9:56 AM Subject: [TCWUG] Orinoco gold locally? > Has anyone seen the Orinoco Gold pc card for sale locally in the Twin > Cities? > > Thanks,m > > -- > /* Greg Evans, Bloomington, MN., USA - gje@parrotheaven.com */ > ------------- > "Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where > there is no path and leave a trail." > -- George Bernard Shaw > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > From brent at nordist.net Thu May 9 11:05:30 2002 From: brent at nordist.net (Brent J. Nordquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] FCC Part 15, 2.4GHz, and interference Message-ID: /. had a pointer yesterday to an interesting article about potential interference with the 2.4GHz part of the spectrum from a new lighting product. What I found interesting was the description of FCC Part 15, which makes an interesting bargain: users don't have to be licensed if they "adhere to certain technical limitations with no expectation of protection". This bargain is one of the things that's driving the rapid adoption of 802.11b but I had never thought of the potential downside. Google cached: http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:s_3kW3w2WIEC:www.strohpub.com/0701feat.htm Original: http://www.strohpub.com/0701feat.htm -- Brent J. Nordquist N0BJN From kritchie at kritchie.org Thu May 9 11:11:25 2002 From: kritchie at kritchie.org (Kent Ritchie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Asim's Coffee Shop Net? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Asim- Do you have a web page listing which coffee shops and hot spots you have setup? If not, can you just post a list to the list? I can't seem to remember them as mentioned in the meeting. Thanks! -Kent From natecars at real-time.com Thu May 9 11:22:39 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] FCC Part 15, 2.4GHz, and interference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 May 2002, Brent J. Nordquist wrote: > /. had a pointer yesterday to an interesting article about potential > interference with the 2.4GHz part of the spectrum from a new lighting > product. What I found interesting was the description of FCC Part 15, > which makes an interesting bargain: users don't have to be licensed > if they "adhere to certain technical limitations with no expectation > of protection". This bargain is one of the things that's driving the > rapid adoption of 802.11b but I had never thought of the potential > downside. If you read the notes, it sounds like this article is actually a year old, and Fusion is now out of business. At least, so the Slashdot'ers say in the comments.. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From natecars at real-time.com Thu May 9 11:25:29 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Thoughts from show and tell In-Reply-To: <20020508101316.A25442@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 May 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > Time will tell, I guess. > > I figure there are two approaches to this problem: > > o sealing the case & filling it with dry > air/gas. > > o venting. > > I went with the venting approach. As long as humidity is > non-condensing, it shouldn't really matter that much. > > Assuming the unit lasts through the summer, I can disassemble it in > the fall and see how the electronics inside has survived. > > I'll try and take photos this week and install the darn thing this > weekend. On one of the other lists (can't remember which one), they ended up having to install 12v fans inside of the case to keep it cool in the summer.. total side note, but may be a consideration. Apparently, WAP11's will run as cold as you could ever want, but when they start getting really warm, you have issues. Got pictures of the box yet? :) -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From natecars at real-time.com Thu May 9 11:25:38 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020509061211.B29375@real-time.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 May 2002, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > I personally live a long way out of the Cities (Buffalo); so > directly connecting with a TC wireless network isn't really a likely > option anytime soon. however, I do have a stack of p75-p100 computers > down in my basement that I'll happily sell/swap for $10/ea; and I have > some small experience with firewalls and routers, so I'll be happy to > help people set up firewalls/DMZ networks for their wireless gear. > I do actually have an 80-foot tower that I have free access to > and use of. however, it's a silo on a farm in Mayer (40 mi. west of > the 'Cities); so the utility of it is a bit limited at the moment. ;) Hmm.. do you have LOS from your house to the silo? If you do, might be fun to set up a long range wireless link, and serve some of the farms. :) -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From natecars at real-time.com Thu May 9 12:03:34 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: Inexpensive Antennas [Was: Re: [TCWUG] Ebay fun...] In-Reply-To: <000e01c1f6bd$9fd8c540$3201a8c0@jennifer> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 May 2002, Alex Hartman wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2022765977 > > For those interested in doing some p2p stuff, he's got 10 of them, and > a $70/ea that'd do some nice infrastructure for a part of the > cities... For more inexpensive antennas, check out http://www.superpass.com. I've purchased a few omni's from them, and they've treated me really well. You'll want to talk to the owner, John. Make sure to mention you're with a wireless users group. They don't sell anything really high gain, but they have a wide variety of panel and sector antennas (good for covering things like parks and such), and they make some lower-gain omni's. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From chrise at pobox.com Thu May 9 12:03:37 2002 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] FCC Part 15, 2.4GHz, and interference In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Thu, May 09, 2002 at 11:09:59AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20020509113542.E31356@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (05/09/2002 at 11:09AM -0500), Nate Carlson wrote: > On Thu, 9 May 2002, Brent J. Nordquist wrote: > > /. had a pointer yesterday to an interesting article about potential > > interference with the 2.4GHz part of the spectrum from a new lighting > > product. What I found interesting was the description of FCC Part 15, > > which makes an interesting bargain: users don't have to be licensed > > if they "adhere to certain technical limitations with no expectation > > of protection". This bargain is one of the things that's driving the > > rapid adoption of 802.11b but I had never thought of the potential > > downside. > > If you read the notes, it sounds like this article is actually a year old, > and Fusion is now out of business. At least, so the Slashdot'ers say in > the comments.. I think that you would see SIGNIFICANT industry lobbying from the likes of anyone building WLAN equipment-- such as Cisco, Intersil, many others.. that would just make this problem go away... should these ever become closer to reality. The FCC (w.r.t. part 15 at least) is all about facilitating product growth and revenue. They are interested in making it easy for ALOT of companies to do well on a particular piece of spectrum... not in taking a risk that ONE might do well with some untested (in the field) product idea that potentially conflicts with all the others. If the bulbs came to market but wiped out 802.11b LANs everywhere they were used, the bulbs would likely disappear from the market for lack of type-acceptance (ie, FCC approval). cje -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~chrise From cheath at interlinkcom.com Thu May 9 12:10:49 2002 From: cheath at interlinkcom.com (Heath, Chandler) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] FCC Part 15, 2.4GHz, and interference Message-ID: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F172@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com> That all depends on if this company can actually get a product to market AND gain wide acceptance. -----Original Message----- From: Brent J. Nordquist To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Sent: 5/9/2002 9:46 AM Subject: [TCWUG] FCC Part 15, 2.4GHz, and interference /. had a pointer yesterday to an interesting article about potential interference with the 2.4GHz part of the spectrum from a new lighting product. What I found interesting was the description of FCC Part 15, which makes an interesting bargain: users don't have to be licensed if they "adhere to certain technical limitations with no expectation of protection". This bargain is one of the things that's driving the rapid adoption of 802.11b but I had never thought of the potential downside. Google cached: http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:s_3kW3w2WIEC:www.strohpub.com/0701f eat.htm Original: http://www.strohpub.com/0701feat.htm -- Brent J. Nordquist N0BJN _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ From dieman at ringworld.org Thu May 9 12:21:25 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <20020509171702.GJ15352@ringworld.org> * Austad, Jay [020509 10:20]: > Also, I know some of you are looking at Sputnik. I think to make the free > version work, everyone using it needs to have a sputnik account (created Thats why im thinking of taking it and modifying some things and finding a good embedded routing platform for which to do this off of. A person here at the univ is coming up with a good platform thats really designed for something like the sokeris machines. I might be interested in using that, too. In the end, it would be cool to have a dist that can be easily used by nodes if they choose to that is maintained by someone in the group. -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From bryan at edgar.sector14.net Thu May 9 12:21:33 2002 From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:52 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> from "Austad, Jay" at May 09, 2002 09:52:59 AM Message-ID: <200205091703.g49H3fm29001@twenty.sector14.net> Austad, Jay wrote: > Well, the guy that runs ingenious-nets.com(or .net, forget which) told me > that he has a 23 mile 802.11b link, using only a 24db directional on each > end, no amplifiers. After 23 miles, you start running into curvature of the > earth issues, but with an antenna that is 80 feet high, you might be able to > squeeze some more range out of it. Plus, you can toss an amp on each end > also. I have some software that can do plots of general coverage and point-to-point links. For some examples of what it can do, look at: http://fox.sector14.net/~bryan/radio/2g_coverage.jpg Warning this is a 990k jpg! This is a coverage map from my home in Apple Valley and assumes a 40 foot tall antenna on the receive end with 15db of gain in the antenna system. The different colors are signal level in dbm. A -82 dbm signal level is the minimum required for a full bandwidth connection for the Orinoco cards. http://fox.sector14.net/~bryan/radio/n0buu-ka0ztt.jpg This is a point-to-point plot from my place to a friend's place just off of 35E and Grand Ave in St. Paul. The receive sensitivity is wrong in this one but it shows that the link could possibly work but will probably be flakey because of the closeness of the hill in the middle. > > Say we did build a sweet wireless network... It's obviously going to have > multiple connections to the internet. So how do we plan on doing routing? > Do we want people to go out the nearest internet connection? Or, to get > more complicated, out the *best* internet connection? This is kind of what Andy was getting at. Hot spots would probably each have their own Internet connection while a metro wide network will probably only have a single connection to the Internet. The design of each type of system is very different. I think that it's a bit too early to try to build a metro wide network at this time. I think we should work on Hot spots for now and we can revisit the issue in a few months when we see how the group is growing. -- Bryan Halvorson bryan@edgar.sector14.net From andyw at pobox.com Thu May 9 12:46:15 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:53 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020509171702.GJ15352@ringworld.org>; from dieman@ringworld.org on Thu, May 09, 2002 at 12:17:02PM -0500 References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020509171702.GJ15352@ringworld.org> Message-ID: <20020509124117.A29128@florence.linkmargin.com> Scott Dier wrote: > [...] > Thats why im thinking of taking it and modifying some things and finding > a good embedded routing platform for which to do this off of. Take a look at: http://www.musenki.com/solutions.html Don't have pricing, but I know it's going to be competitive, just look at the BOM cost. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From goober at goobe.net Thu May 9 13:10:29 2002 From: goober at goobe.net (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:53 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <001101c1f76f$94e68390$3201a8c0@jennifer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Austad, Jay" To: Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 9:52 AM Subject: RE: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. > > I do actually have an 80-foot tower that I have free > > access to and use of. however, it's a silo on a farm in Mayer > > (40 mi. west of the 'Cities); so the utility of it is a bit > > limited at the moment. ;) > > Well, the guy that runs ingenious-nets.com(or .net, forget which) told me > that he has a 23 mile 802.11b link, using only a 24db directional on each > end, no amplifiers. After 23 miles, you start running into curvature of the > earth issues, but with an antenna that is 80 feet high, you might be able to > squeeze some more range out of it. Plus, you can toss an amp on each end > also. > dunno if you'd want to do much past 20 miles, your latency would start getting up there... 802.11b supports "roaming", maybe stick an AP with multiple directional antennas at a midpoint, acting as a repeater... just an idea. > Say we did build a sweet wireless network... It's obviously going to have > multiple connections to the internet. So how do we plan on doing routing? > Do we want people to go out the nearest internet connection? Or, to get > more complicated, out the *best* internet connection? > > Also, I know some of you are looking at Sputnik. I think to make the free > version work, everyone using it needs to have a sputnik account (created > through their website). That's not really a problem, but then you don't > really have any way to manage the access yourself on the network. If > someone has a sputnik account, they get in. But, I don't think Sputnik > boxes have the ability to route between each other either, they are simply > meant as a NAT device that provides internet access via a captive gateway, > and nothing more. The commercial version of it looks to be more flexible, > but it obviously costs money. > > As far as captive gateways go, I've mentioned this on the TCLUG list... > Netscreen makes a cheap consumer model of their firewall called the 5XP. It > lists for $495, but I've seen it on ebay cheaper and through resellers for > less (search google for netscreen, and check out the ads on the right side). > The 5XP has captive gateway functionality (web and telnet for sure, possibly > ssh), it can authenticate via a local database, RADIUS, or LDAP server. > Almost everything on it is handled by an ASIC, including IPSec tunnels. > Yes, you can set up tunnels between Netscreens, and they will also talk to > FreeSWAN or anything that speaks standard IPSec. Also, they have software > for it that supports OSPF and BGP. I have one at home, and I'd sleep with > it under my pillow if I didn't have to unplug it from the network first. > > Jay Interesting question, with many answers. Guess my answer would be 'how geeky are you?' I can setup my free p166 with multiple interfaces, iptables/ipf, and my pci wireless card, it acts as a stateful firewall/gateway. (as i do now) As for routing, that's a really good question. Zebra is an option for those of ubergeek status. BGP/OSPF on a private network sounds interesting. Also, ipv6 is another option, even though it's not widely used or implimented yet, i'd like to see some incantation of it existing. This would be the best way to do it on the cheap. For those that aren't of the geek arena, somthing like a Netscreen would probably be on the high end, since just using multiple subnets and a linksys broadband router will do. Just my $0.02 -- Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 "Watch out for that bus!" From dieman at ringworld.org Thu May 9 13:41:54 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:53 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020509124117.A29128@florence.linkmargin.com> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020509171702.GJ15352@ringworld.org> <20020509124117.A29128@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020509182206.GL15352@ringworld.org> * Andy Warner [020509 12:49]: > http://www.musenki.com/solutions.html I'm worried the processor on these is too fast and might have heat concerns. I would need to research more to find out. -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From andyw at pobox.com Thu May 9 17:15:11 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:53 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020509182206.GL15352@ringworld.org>; from dieman@ringworld.org on Thu, May 09, 2002 at 01:22:06PM -0500 References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020509171702.GJ15352@ringworld.org> <20020509124117.A29128@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020509182206.GL15352@ringworld.org> Message-ID: <20020509165846.B29128@florence.linkmargin.com> Scott Dier wrote: > * Andy Warner [020509 12:49]: > > http://www.musenki.com/solutions.html > > I'm worried the processor on these is too fast and might have heat > concerns. I would need to research more to find out. The Moto MPC8241 clocks in at 1W typical dissipation running at 200MHz. The AMD SC520 used in the Soekris boxes quotes 1.2W typical dissipation at 100MHz. I don't know what else you might be comparing against, but neither sounds like a problem part, heat-wise. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From dieman at ringworld.org Thu May 9 17:41:23 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:53 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020509165846.B29128@florence.linkmargin.com> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020509171702.GJ15352@ringworld.org> <20020509124117.A29128@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020509182206.GL15352@ringworld.org> <20020509165846.B29128@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020509222213.GM15352@ringworld.org> * Andy Warner [020509 17:16]: > boxes quotes 1.2W typical dissipation at 100MHz. I > don't know what else you might be comparing against, > but neither sounds like a problem part, heat-wise. I didn't know what the first box had for heat dissapation other than it had a faster clock. Cool, though. -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From chrome at real-time.com Thu May 9 18:11:54 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:53 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>; from austad@marketwatch.com on Thu, May 09, 2002 at 09:52:59AM -0500 References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <20020509180309.H32185@real-time.com> On Thu, May 09, 2002 at 09:52:59AM -0500, Austad, Jay wrote: > > I do actually have an 80-foot tower that I have free > > access to and use of. however, it's a silo on a farm in Mayer > > (40 mi. west of the 'Cities); so the utility of it is a bit > > limited at the moment. ;) > > Well, the guy that runs ingenious-nets.com(or .net, forget which) told me > that he has a 23 mile 802.11b link, using only a 24db directional on each > end, no amplifiers. After 23 miles, you start running into curvature of the > earth issues, but with an antenna that is 80 feet high, you might be able to > squeeze some more range out of it. Plus, you can toss an amp on each end > also. I'll have to climb up to the top of it sometime; but I don't think I have LOS (to the east) much beyond Waconia, and maybe not even that far.. (hills in that direction). to the north there's hills as well, so maybe I could hit a tall mast in Montrose or Watertown; but I don't know. my parents' house is about 2 miles away (far side of town... which gives you some idea of how small Mayer is, considering that the town is a mile from the farm), and in the winter we used to have LOS; but there's a development of houses in the way now, so we'd have to put up a mast in the yard there too. still, there's sort-of flat ground for several miles around it, so if anyone wants to do range testing with their gear in an environment fairly free of other wireless noise, it might be a useful spot. Carl Soderstrom. -- Network Engineer Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From chrome at real-time.com Thu May 9 18:25:22 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:54 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <001101c1f76f$94e68390$3201a8c0@jennifer>; from goober@goobe.net on Thu, May 09, 2002 at 10:38:34AM -0500 References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <001101c1f76f$94e68390$3201a8c0@jennifer> Message-ID: <20020509180726.I32185@real-time.com> > dunno if you'd want to do much past 20 miles, your latency would start > getting up there... what's the max latency-limited range for 802.11b gear? 20mi is already well past the 1.5Km of 10base-T ethernet. > 802.11b supports "roaming", maybe stick an AP with multiple directional > antennas at a midpoint, acting as a repeater... just an idea. yeah, if we ever get someone in Waconia, it might be an option. :) Carl Soderstrom. -- Network Engineer Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From mbresnah at visi.com Thu May 9 21:50:11 2002 From: mbresnah at visi.com (Mike Bresnahan) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:54 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points??? In-Reply-To: <20020427220117.W26261@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: > This is because Kismet doesn't do any channel hopping itself, you need > to use either the included scripts (prism2_hopper, etc) or run something > like prismstumbler in the background that hops channels. > > > This is all in the documentation, kismet is a great program. Ok, I finally found mention of prism2_hopper after downloading kimset 2.0 tarball. The script appears to have been added in version 1.5. I was using version 1.4.2, thus my documentation/README did not mention it. Thanks for the lead. Can someone satsify my curiosity as to why the channel hopping functionality is implemented as a seperate process, rather than being part of the kismet server? Mike Bresnahan From sulrich at botwerks.org Thu May 9 22:14:03 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:54 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <200205091703.g49H3fm29001@twenty.sector14.net> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <200205091703.g49H3fm29001@twenty.sector14.net> Message-ID: <20020509215704.A16526@botwerks.org> bryan - misc comments inline... when last we saw our hero (Thursday, May 09, 2002), Bryan Halvorson was madly tapping out: > Austad, Jay wrote: > > > Well, the guy that runs ingenious-nets.com(or .net, forget which) told me > > that he has a 23 mile 802.11b link, using only a 24db directional on each > > end, no amplifiers. After 23 miles, you start running into curvature of the > > earth issues, but with an antenna that is 80 feet high, you might be able to > > squeeze some more range out of it. Plus, you can toss an amp on each end > > also. > > I have some software that can do plots of general coverage and > point-to-point links. For some examples of what it can do, look at: > > http://fox.sector14.net/~bryan/radio/2g_coverage.jpg > > Warning this is a 990k jpg! > This is a coverage map from my home in Apple Valley and assumes a 40 > foot tall antenna on the receive end with 15db of gain in the antenna > system. The different colors are signal level in dbm. A -82 dbm signal > level is the minimum required for a full bandwidth connection for the > Orinoco cards. > > http://fox.sector14.net/~bryan/radio/n0buu-ka0ztt.jpg > > This is a point-to-point plot from my place to a friend's place just off > of 35E and Grand Ave in St. Paul. The receive sensitivity is wrong in > this one but it shows that the link could possibly work but will > probably be flakey because of the closeness of the hill in the middle. these are some impressive outputs. i'm particularly impressed with the x-section that you've got displayed in the 2nd image that you've linked to. - of interest to me is the display of the fresnel zone and what i surmise is the straight line topology as calculated by USGS data? this is a really nice tool - do tell what is it? > > Say we did build a sweet wireless network... It's obviously going to have > > multiple connections to the internet. So how do we plan on doing routing? > > Do we want people to go out the nearest internet connection? Or, to get > > more complicated, out the *best* internet connection? > > This is kind of what Andy was getting at. Hot spots would probably each > have their own Internet connection while a metro wide network will > probably only have a single connection to the Internet. The design of > each type of system is very different. > > I think that it's a bit too early to try to build a metro wide network > at this time. I think we should work on Hot spots for now and we can > revisit the issue in a few months when we see how the group is growing. i would concur with this - there are a few different mechanisms for the routing of traffic to the nearest (and best) internet gw in the overlay objective. but given the complexities associated with this and the required routing infrastructure to accomplish this appropriately this is likely a good task discussion for down the line. are we building to a consensus yet? {snipped - .signatures ...} -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From mbresnah at visi.com Thu May 9 22:14:06 2002 From: mbresnah at visi.com (Mike Bresnahan) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:54 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: <20020509180726.I32185@real-time.com> Message-ID: NEWBIE ALERT I'm very new to this wireless stuff and have never played with radio equipment beyond Citizen's Band (CB radio), but I know enough to have a couple questions about the range of 802.11b. What little I have read about 802.11b and its counterparts (e.g. bluetooth wireless) discusses effective ranges of 10-100 meters. My limited experience with my Linksys Prism2.5 card confirms this range. How is it that people on this list are discussing ranges upwards of 23 miles? Perhaps the stuff I have been reading assumes very small antennae? After seeing the coverage maps of the Twin Cities displayed at the meeting, I'm left with some confusion. What good is it to put up a big antennae backed by a big amplifier and coat a very large area with 802.11b? Can people with ordinary WLAN cards in their laptops actually communicate with the access point? I can understand how they might be able to recieve data, but how can they hope to transmit over such a large distance with their wimpy amplifier and antennae? Do you need a big antennae only on one end to make it work? Mike Bresnahan From dieman at ringworld.org Thu May 9 23:03:17 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:54 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020509215704.A16526@botwerks.org> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <200205091703.g49H3fm29001@twenty.sector14.net> <20020509215704.A16526@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020510035620.GN15352@ringworld.org> * steve ulrich [020509 22:39]: > i would concur with this - there are a few different mechanisms for the > routing of traffic to the nearest (and best) internet gw in the overlay I'm somewhat convinced we shouldn't get into the business of providing internet bandwidth and leave that up to people that want to either vpn into their home networks or make arrangements with individual gateways on the overlay network. Perhaps it would be a nice future goal on the overlay network, but I don't think it should be a driving force. Overlays, IMO, are to free myself from copper and another monthly fee for a long transport pipe, and not necessarily for a internet connection. I'm not sure how may people can provide connectivity for free without liability or cost. On another note, I wonder how hard it would be to use IPSEC/AH to provide QoS over saturated links to 'contributing members'. IE: let anyone use the links, but the people who ponied up money for equipment and time and stuff get some priority. Not to be elite, but to be rewarding and as an incentive if we ever come to the problem of having that much usage. I think both of these problems are problems we hope to have, someday, too. :) -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From chrise at pobox.com Thu May 9 23:22:17 2002 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:54 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: ; from mbresnah@visi.com on Thu, May 09, 2002 at 10:00:18PM -0500 References: <20020509180726.I32185@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020509230724.A32482@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (05/09/2002 at 10:00PM -0500), Mike Bresnahan wrote: > NEWBIE ALERT > > I'm very new to this wireless stuff and have never played with radio > equipment beyond Citizen's Band (CB radio), but I know enough to have a > couple questions about the range of 802.11b. > > What little I have read about 802.11b and its counterparts (e.g. bluetooth > wireless) discusses effective ranges of 10-100 meters. My limited > experience with my Linksys Prism2.5 card confirms this range. How is it > that people on this list are discussing ranges upwards of 23 miles? Perhaps > the stuff I have been reading assumes very small antennae? > > After seeing the coverage maps of the Twin Cities displayed at the meeting, > I'm left with some confusion. What good is it to put up a big antennae > backed by a big amplifier and coat a very large area with 802.11b? Can > people with ordinary WLAN cards in their laptops actually communicate with > the access point? I can understand how they might be able to recieve data, > but how can they hope to transmit over such a large distance with their > wimpy amplifier and antennae? Do you need a big antennae only on one end to > make it work? Mike, This is exactly the kind of problem we want to watch out for. Adding an amplifier (if even legal) to only one end of a link, will generally make that link asymetric or unbalanced. The condition you describe is the result-- the node can hear the AP over a huge area but the AP cannot hear the node. In a duplex (ie, two-way, bidirectional) system like 802.11b, this does absolutely no good. All it does is splatter the area with signal from the AP that is not useable beyond the distance that the node can transmit back-- yielding nothing but interference for other users in the same general area. Adding a "bidirectional" amplifier (ie, a transmit power amplifier and a receive preamplifier) at one end doesn't really do much better because the preamplifier will never be able to recover the signal from the node that is lost in the noise over the same distance. Adding any kind of amplifier to these systems and then using omni antennas is just going to cause grief for everyone. The people that are talking about 20+ mile paths are hopefully using directional antennas at both ends and keeping their signal to a relatively narrow beamwidth. This approach is acceptable because you are not flooding huge areas with signal that nobody needs. Keep thinking wireless *LANs*. The "L" is for local. Connecting a bunch of LANs into a bigger WAN, using routing and backbone links is the right way to do this, I believe. Spewing whopping great signals from mountain tops (which we don't have) is not... -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~chrise From bryan at edgar.sector14.net Fri May 10 00:29:46 2002 From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:54 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020509215704.A16526@botwerks.org> from "steve ulrich" at May 09, 2002 09:57:04 PM Message-ID: <200205100520.g4A5KCu01196@twenty.sector14.net> steve ulrich wrote: > these are some impressive outputs. i'm particularly impressed > with the x-section that you've got displayed in the 2nd image that you've > linked to. > > - of interest to me is the display of the fresnel zone and what i surmise > is the straight line topology as calculated by USGS data? Yup. And if you look under the colors on the other maps you can see the topo lines in them as well. The thicker lines are at 100 meter height intervals and the thiner lines are 10 meter intervals. > > this is a really nice tool - do tell what is it? It's called Radio Mobile and the program is downloadable from http://www.cplus.org/rmw/english1.html It's not all that easy to set up and requires a fair amount of technical knowledge about the equipment you're using and of antenna systems to get the displays right. They tell you where to get the USGS data from. The US data takes almost 3gig of space. -- Bryan Halvorson bryan@edgar.sector14.net From bryan at edgar.sector14.net Fri May 10 02:05:31 2002 From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:54 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: from "Mike Bresnahan" at May 09, 2002 10:00:18 PM Message-ID: <200205100700.g4A707S01361@twenty.sector14.net> Mike Bresnahan wrote: > > NEWBIE ALERT > > I'm very new to this wireless stuff and have never played with radio > equipment beyond Citizen's Band (CB radio), but I know enough to have a > couple questions about the range of 802.11b. > > What little I have read about 802.11b and its counterparts (e.g. bluetooth > wireless) discusses effective ranges of 10-100 meters. My limited > experience with my Linksys Prism2.5 card confirms this range. How is it > that people on this list are discussing ranges upwards of 23 miles? Perhaps > the stuff I have been reading assumes very small antennae? The things that make the biggest difference in the distance it works are the quality of your antennas and what's between the two systems. The antenna that's built into the cards is a so-so antenna with no gain to it that's usually in a very poor location. Adding a small antenna that just sticks up above the metal in your computer can easily double the range you get. Something like this http://www.maxrad.com/maxrad_products/broadband/2-6ghz/pdf/mig_tape_mount_omni_series.pdf . > > After seeing the coverage maps of the Twin Cities displayed at the meeting, > I'm left with some confusion. What good is it to put up a big antennae > backed by a big amplifier and coat a very large area with 802.11b? Can > people with ordinary WLAN cards in their laptops actually communicate with > the access point? I can understand how they might be able to recieve data, > but how can they hope to transmit over such a large distance with their > wimpy amplifier and antennae? Do you need a big antennae only on one end to > make it work? No. You need a balanced system. If the transmitter power on one end is alot higher than the other end it'll just be transmitting alot farther than it can hear the replys from. In the maps I refered to in my earlier message today the equipment I'm using on my end is a Cisco LMC352 100 milliwatt card, 100 feet of very low loss coax and a 10db gain omni antenna that's 180 feet above most of the ground level around me. It's also assuming a 40 foot tall antenna on the other end to get it above alot of the trees. Will I realisticly be able to get that kind of range out of it? Probably not. Mostly because of interference from other systems that my tall system can hear but the other end cannot that will be transmitting at the same time. -- Bryan Halvorson bryan@edgar.sector14.net From natecars at real-time.com Fri May 10 10:21:56 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:54 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 May 2002, Mike Bresnahan wrote: > I'm very new to this wireless stuff and have never played with radio > equipment beyond Citizen's Band (CB radio), but I know enough to have > a couple questions about the range of 802.11b. > > What little I have read about 802.11b and its counterparts (e.g. > bluetooth wireless) discusses effective ranges of 10-100 meters. My > limited experience with my Linksys Prism2.5 card confirms this range. > How is it that people on this list are discussing ranges upwards of 23 > miles? Perhaps the stuff I have been reading assumes very small > antennae? Yup -- it assumes the built in rubber duckies, which generally have a gain of 0 dBi to 2 dBi. You can get antennas that do 24 dBi for < $100. Remember, dBi isn't a linear scale -- every 3dBi of gain effectivly doubles your power (iirc). > After seeing the coverage maps of the Twin Cities displayed at the > meeting, I'm left with some confusion. What good is it to put up a > big antennae backed by a big amplifier and coat a very large area with > 802.11b? Can people with ordinary WLAN cards in their laptops > actually communicate with the access point? I can understand how they > might be able to recieve data, but how can they hope to transmit over > such a large distance with their wimpy amplifier and antennae? Do you > need a big antennae only on one end to make it work? Depends on how far out you are. Often, yes, you will need an antenna to communicate back. But, it's not really that expensive.. $80 for a card with an external antenna connector and a pigtail, $50 for misc cables, $75 for a lightning arrestor, $50 for a tripod and ground strap, and $75 for an antenna.. not cheap, but not insane, especially if you're planning on getting 'net access through it (can buy this instead of a cable modem or dsl router). -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From natecars at real-time.com Fri May 10 10:22:04 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:54 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020510035620.GN15352@ringworld.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 May 2002, Scott Dier wrote: > On another note, I wonder how hard it would be to use IPSEC/AH to > provide QoS over saturated links to 'contributing members'. IE: let > anyone use the links, but the people who ponied up money for equipment > and time and stuff get some priority. Not to be elite, but to be > rewarding and as an incentive if we ever come to the problem of having > that much usage. Shouldn't be too hard, I wouldn't think.. but, I haven't played with QoS in the Linux kernel enough to know for sure. Something else to add to my todo list. :) -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From chrome at real-time.com Fri May 10 10:52:02 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:54 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Fri, May 10, 2002 at 10:06:36AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20020510102939.N32185@real-time.com> > Yup -- it assumes the built in rubber duckies, which generally have a gain > of 0 dBi to 2 dBi. You can get antennas that do 24 dBi for < $100. > Remember, dBi isn't a linear scale -- every 3dBi of gain effectivly > doubles your power (iirc). just as a matter of idle curiosity, what's the highest-gain 802.11b antenna anyone has ever seen? any guesses as to the gain on the Arecibo radio telescope? ;) Carl Soderstrom. -- Network Engineer Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From sulrich at botwerks.org Fri May 10 10:56:25 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:54 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020510035620.GN15352@ringworld.org> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <200205091703.g49H3fm29001@twenty.sector14.net> <20020509215704.A16526@botwerks.org> <20020510035620.GN15352@ringworld.org> Message-ID: <20020510104233.B16903@botwerks.org> when last we saw our hero (Thursday, May 09, 2002), Scott Dier was madly tapping out: > * steve ulrich [020509 22:39]: > > i would concur with this - there are a few different mechanisms for the > > routing of traffic to the nearest (and best) internet gw in the overlay > > I'm somewhat convinced we shouldn't get into the business of providing > internet bandwidth and leave that up to people that want to either vpn > into their home networks or make arrangements with individual gateways > on the overlay network. Perhaps it would be a nice future goal on the > overlay network, but I don't think it should be a driving force. > > Overlays, IMO, are to free myself from copper and another monthly fee > for a long transport pipe, and not necessarily for a internet > connection. > > I'm not sure how may people can provide connectivity for free without > liability or cost. in an overlay it's not required that all nodes provide internet access. however for the nodes that are willing to provide internet access, this can be accomodated. it will require that the overlay network run at least an IGP routing protocol. IMO all the more reason to focus on hot spots until there is a critical mass for the deployment of an overlay network. > On another note, I wonder how hard it would be to use IPSEC/AH to > provide QoS over saturated links to 'contributing members'. IE: let > anyone use the links, but the people who ponied up money for equipment > and time and stuff get some priority. Not to be elite, but to be > rewarding and as an incentive if we ever come to the problem of having > that much usage. > > I think both of these problems are problems we hope to have, someday, > too. :) actually - you don't need to use IPSec in order to give preferential treatment to subscribers. this can be done by using the appropriate queuing on the gw. the *BSDs have really nice tools for handling this type of behaviour. i've used altq and dummynet to do this in the lab and on my home network. i don't know what queuing mechanisms are available on linux these days but the last i checked the options available pretty much sucked rocks. queuing on the edge should be more than sufficient for this type of application. additionally, type of traffic prioritization is key to the nocat framework. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From dieman at ringworld.org Fri May 10 11:29:01 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020510104233.B16903@botwerks.org> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <200205091703.g49H3fm29001@twenty.sector14.net> <20020509215704.A16526@botwerks.org> <20020510035620.GN15352@ringworld.org> <20020510104233.B16903@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020510161542.GQ15352@ringworld.org> > can be accomodated. it will require that the overlay network run at least > an IGP routing protocol. IMO all the more reason to focus on hot spots > until there is a critical mass for the deployment of an overlay network. I would like to see the routing infrastructure more oriented towards routing packets efficently within the overlay network than optimised to get them to the internet. This allows users to negoiate with whomever for gateway services and I think there will be a much better balance in goals by emphasising that the overlay network is a alternative to copper for long haul transport across a metropolitan area and not a method for internet access. It means that the network might not be efficient for packets to get routed to the internet,though. I guess you can have both with the right mix of routing protocols, but I fear that the task of getting 'free' internet gateways will be much harder than just getting a overlay network up. I dont want to overdesign the network towards internet access and more towards users providing multiple services, one possibly being gateway access for other users for free, or for money, or for only people they know. My goal is to avoid copper in this case and to avoid costly montly fees that will cost more than contributions to the network over time. > actually - you don't need to use IPSec in order to give preferential > treatment to subscribers. this can be done by using the appropriate > queuing on the gw. the *BSDs have really nice tools for handling this How do you authenticate that queuing? I know about altq. Using static ip addresses isn't a good answer. Using MAC address mappings isn't either. However, this isn't a problem that needs to be answered for a good long time. I think AH will have a large potential in this network for authetication of network services in some cases.... -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From natecars at real-time.com Fri May 10 11:36:26 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: <20020510102939.N32185@real-time.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 May 2002, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > just as a matter of idle curiosity, what's the highest-gain 802.11b > antenna anyone has ever seen? any guesses as to the gain on the > Arecibo radio telescope? ;) I've seen 30-some dBi.. forget FCC regulations, though. :) -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From austad at marketwatch.com Fri May 10 11:38:14 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Special Interest Groups. Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76BAB@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> > On another note, I wonder how hard it would be to use > IPSEC/AH to provide QoS over saturated links to 'contributing > members'. IE: let anyone use the links, but the people who > ponied up money for equipment and time and stuff get some > priority. Not to be elite, but to be rewarding and as an > incentive if we ever come to the problem of having that much usage. Or, there's always the possibility of offering net access through a captive gateway type device, but, limit it to 9600bps or something for non-contributors, and have the option in the captive gateway to donate via paypal, and raise the available bandwidth to something more usable. Internet connections aren't exactly free, they have to be financed somehow. Jay From sulrich at botwerks.org Fri May 10 11:38:20 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] gps recommendations Message-ID: <20020510110937.A16953@botwerks.org> i'm curious as to what people are using as their GPS for applications like kismet. any recommendations? PCMCIA type GPSs would be preferred i guess since i'd like to consolidate the number of devices i need to carry around. what are folks using? -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From chrise at pobox.com Fri May 10 11:39:16 2002 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: <20020510102939.N32185@real-time.com>; from chrome@real-time.com on Fri, May 10, 2002 at 10:29:39AM -0500 References: <20020510102939.N32185@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020510111042.B1328@n0jcf.net> On Friday (05/10/2002 at 10:29AM -0500), Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > > Yup -- it assumes the built in rubber duckies, which generally have a gain > > of 0 dBi to 2 dBi. You can get antennas that do 24 dBi for < $100. > > Remember, dBi isn't a linear scale -- every 3dBi of gain effectivly > > doubles your power (iirc). > > just as a matter of idle curiosity, what's the highest-gain 802.11b antenna > anyone has ever seen? there are plenty of hams messing around with moon-bounce on S-band-- using 3, 6 or even 10m dishes. Of course these aren't particularly practical for terrestrial work I suppose. I'd say you're most likely to see a practical, useable, directional antenna in the 20 to 25 dB range. > any guesses as to the gain on the Arecibo radio telescope? ;) 74 dB at S-band. It also has a 1 megawatt S-band transmitter :-) cje -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~chrise From dieman at ringworld.org Fri May 10 12:03:08 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76BAB@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76BAB@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <20020510165546.GR15352@ringworld.org> * Austad, Jay [020510 11:40]: > Or, there's always the possibility of offering net access through a captive > gateway type device, but, limit it to 9600bps or something for Yeah, but I am for providing as much bandwidth as we can over the overlay links to the public. I just don't think it will be easy to keep internet gateways free if people catch on to it. -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From cncole at earthlink.net Fri May 10 12:36:02 2002 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: <20020510102939.N32185@real-time.com> Message-ID: <003301c1f847$31470930$6c01a8c0@HPZT> > just as a matter of idle curiosity, what's the highest-gain > 802.11b antenna > anyone has ever seen? > any guesses as to the gain on the Arecibo radio telescope? ;) > > Carl Soderstrom. > -- I understand your question, but point out that individual antennas can be "stacked" so gains add. Quad high-gain arrays are commonly done by HAMs, and are described in the ARRL books as I recall. Much higher could be exponentially challenging, however. I'm just guessing from very old memory, but I think the gain of a parabolic dish like feed gain times the number of wavelengths of aperture diameter. An old large-size satellite TV dish of 8 ft or so size fed by a dipole could be around 48 dBi. Note however, that focus and beam width become issues: if not focused for the "infinite conjugate" (parallel beam), the gain rules don't apply in simple form, and directionality gets very narrow (very hard to aim and keep aimed). Somebody makes a commercial dish of modest size (2ft?) and maybe 24+dBi for WLAN: I'd stop there and never try to stack those things... except as a passive repeater maybe. --- Chuck Cole Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all. - From Douglas Adam's 'Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency'. From bryan at edgar.sector14.net Fri May 10 13:21:10 2002 From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: <20020510111042.B1328@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at May 10, 2002 11:10:42 AM Message-ID: <200205101810.g4AIAsb02280@twenty.sector14.net> Chris Elmquist wrote: > > On Friday (05/10/2002 at 10:29AM -0500), Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > > > Yup -- it assumes the built in rubber duckies, which generally have a gain > > > of 0 dBi to 2 dBi. You can get antennas that do 24 dBi for < $100. > > > Remember, dBi isn't a linear scale -- every 3dBi of gain effectivly > > > doubles your power (iirc). > > > > just as a matter of idle curiosity, what's the highest-gain 802.11b antenna > > anyone has ever seen? > > there are plenty of hams messing around with moon-bounce on S-band-- > using 3, 6 or even 10m dishes. Of course these aren't particularly > practical for terrestrial work I suppose. > > I'd say you're most likely to see a practical, useable, directional > antenna in the 20 to 25 dB range. Yesterday I picked up an Andrew 26T which has 26db of gain. -- Bryan Halvorson bryan@edgar.sector14.net From andyw at pobox.com Fri May 10 14:42:55 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: ; from mbresnah@visi.com on Thu, May 09, 2002 at 10:00:18PM -0500 References: <20020509180726.I32185@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020510141407.A339@florence.linkmargin.com> Mike Bresnahan wrote: > [...] > What little I have read about 802.11b and its counterparts (e.g. bluetooth > wireless) discusses effective ranges of 10-100 meters. My limited > experience with my Linksys Prism2.5 card confirms this range. How is it > that people on this list are discussing ranges upwards of 23 miles? Perhaps > the stuff I have been reading assumes very small antennae? There are some limits imposed by the 802.11b spec that will kick in, even if you have an rf link that defies the laws of physics. The 802.11b protocol uses link-layer acks sent by the MAC to acknowledge packet reception. All receivers are required to respect a quiet window after packet reception (even if it's not for them) to permit the STA a chance to transmit it's ack. If my memory serves me correctly, this window combined with the flight time of the packet effectively puts an upper bound on a vanilla 802.11b link. The window is something like 156uS, which implies ~47Km (29 Miles) (assuming 300m per uS.) Some MACs have special modes where these timers are disabled, but then it's not 802.11b any more (see below.) > After seeing the coverage maps of the Twin Cities displayed at the meeting, > I'm left with some confusion. What good is it to put up a big antennae > backed by a big amplifier and coat a very large area with 802.11b? Can > people with ordinary WLAN cards in their laptops actually communicate with > the access point? I can understand how they might be able to recieve data, > but how can they hope to transmit over such a large distance with their > wimpy amplifier and antennae? Do you need a big antennae only on one end to > make it work? If you're planning a point-to-multipoint setup, remember that hidden-tranmsitter syndrome will start to hurt you. This can be alleviated by using PCF (Point Control Function), where the AP effectively polls the STAs (problem is, most APs don't support PCF), or by enforcing RTS/CTS values in the STAs (most default settings ensure that RTS/CTS will never be used.) The proprietary solutions in this space (e.g. KarlNet) use all kinds of techniques to address issues like hidden transmitter and improve their performance over vanilla 802.11b. Remember also that you'll be talking 1 & 2 Mbit links for the majority of any given coverage area. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From strohfus at homepages-etc.com Fri May 10 15:35:53 2002 From: strohfus at homepages-etc.com (John D. Strohfus) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] TCWUG Website Mgmt / Logos Message-ID: <003e01c1f85b$3be9e060$5d22020a@CALVIN> All: First, it was great to meet many of you at the face2face meeting this week. I look forward to formalizing some of our ideas and participating in a united effort. I think we can really do some good work once we get organized. First of all, thanks to whomever it is that did the website re-design and is doing the hosting. I think the site has a workable format for the time-being. I wanted to address a posting made last week or so ago about the TCWUG website format and logo. In addition to my day job I also have a small web dev company called Homepages Etc. I would be willing to help with any of the site content posting and redesign work etc. I also think that instead of trying to mess with a collab tool like "wiki" (to be fair I have never worked with it). A browser based admin system might work (we use Cold Fusion and MS Access mostly for these...kindof our specialty). To be most simplistic, we could just develop some site standards and templates for each section. People can post content inside the template and then just email the files to a designated person to post. I could help with that too if you want. In general I think opening up access or messing with collab tools will be more hassle than it's worth. If people can write basic html code or just write text in email and attach pictures it is rather simple to filter through a couple website admins and get posted. I could also do the hosting at some point if needed but I think that is all being handled nicely at this point (thx again to whomever is doing that, sorry missed the intros at the first part of the mtg). To start with I had one of my graphics contractors take a stab at a new logo. You can see them here for now: http://www.homepages-etc.com/tcwug/ I will monitor the list and take your suggestions and post more variations. I can also tally the votes and discuss at the next meeting. If the webadmin wants to snag them and move to www.tcwug.org that would be great. I can just email the mods to webmaster@tcwug.org. - John ----------------------------------- Homepages Etc., Inc. Internet Consulting Services 6870 Sherwood Road Woodbury, MN 55125 Phone: (877) 471-2057 Fax: (877) 471-2057 From drechsau at geeks.org Fri May 10 15:39:17 2002 From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020510195825.GA80303@Geeks.ORG> On Fri, May 10, 2002 at 10:06:36AM -0500, Nate Carlson wrote: > (can buy this instead of a cable modem or > dsl router). And connect to...where? -- Mike Horwath IRC: Drechsau drechsau@Geeks.ORG Home: 763-540-6815 1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN 55427 Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period. From sulrich at botwerks.org Fri May 10 15:50:12 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: <20020510195825.GA80303@Geeks.ORG> References: <20020510195825.GA80303@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: <20020510154842.A17482@botwerks.org> when last we saw our hero (Friday, May 10, 2002), Mike Horwath was madly tapping out: > On Fri, May 10, 2002 at 10:06:36AM -0500, Nate Carlson wrote: > > (can buy this instead of a cable modem or > > dsl router). > > And connect to...where? ostensibly someone with an open network that he can mooch access off. or given a sufficient footprint an open wireless network. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From natecars at real-time.com Fri May 10 17:14:18 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: <20020510195825.GA80303@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 May 2002, Mike Horwath wrote: > And connect to...where? Well, that's the part we don't have in place yet. :) -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From poptix at techmonkeys.org Fri May 10 18:28:27 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020509180726.I32185@real-time.com>; from chrome@real-time.com on Thu, May 09, 2002 at 06:07:26PM -0500 References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA005D76B6C@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <001101c1f76f$94e68390$3201a8c0@jennifer> <20020509180726.I32185@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020510162911.D29673@techmonkeys.org> On Thu, May 09, 2002 at 06:07:26PM -0500, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > > dunno if you'd want to do much past 20 miles, your latency would start > > getting up there... > what's the max latency-limited range for 802.11b gear? 20mi is > already well past the 1.5Km of 10base-T ethernet. I've been involved (ie, climbing up the tower, and aiming antennas) in links that went 20 miles, connected with a crossover cable to another radio, then went another 20 miles, at one point (I no longer work for the company, so I don't know the current status) we had a 'lan' (ie, no routers) from Mankato to Willmar via multiple hops (at least 5, I could look up the total number later), with proper frequency coordination, proper radio setup, and the right amount of height it isn't a problem. > > > 802.11b supports "roaming", maybe stick an AP with multiple directional > > antennas at a midpoint, acting as a repeater... just an idea. > > yeah, if we ever get someone in Waconia, it might be an option. :) You should try war driving in the Waconia/Hutchinson/Glencoe area, theres plenty of 802.11 and 802.11b equipment hanging off the water towers and grain elevators. > > Carl Soderstrom. > -- > Network Engineer > Real-Time Enterprises > www.real-time.com -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix GPG public key 0x01938203 From paul at harris.net Fri May 10 18:28:32 2002 From: paul at harris.net (Paul) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless MAN and Real-Time Message-ID: <20020510144442.8777.h015.c000.wm@mail.harris.net.criticalpath.net> Hi, As there are a few 'real-timers' on the list, I wondered if you'd had any thoughts about extending your ISP services to Wireless for the Cities? I can imagine a hybrid setup, with the members of the group providing some facilities (relay stations etc) in return for cheap/free service, with you providing the pipe to the Internet. I only mention it because I live in St Louis Park, where the phone lines suck, so no DSL, and I can't justify the cost of cable! But I'd be happy to act as a relay station :) Cheers, Paul From poptix at techmonkeys.org Fri May 10 18:28:35 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Fri, May 10, 2002 at 11:25:37AM -0500 References: <20020510102939.N32185@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020510163200.E29673@techmonkeys.org> On Fri, May 10, 2002 at 11:25:37AM -0500, Nate Carlson wrote: > On Fri, 10 May 2002, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > > just as a matter of idle curiosity, what's the highest-gain 802.11b > > antenna anyone has ever seen? any guesses as to the gain on the > > Arecibo radio telescope? ;) > > I've seen 30-some dBi.. forget FCC regulations, though. :) > I've used 36dB antennas.. > -- > Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 > http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix GPG public key 0x01938203 From poptix at techmonkeys.org Fri May 10 18:30:17 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points??? In-Reply-To: ; from mbresnah@visi.com on Thu, May 09, 2002 at 09:42:29PM -0500 References: <20020427220117.W26261@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <20020510163749.F29673@techmonkeys.org> On Thu, May 09, 2002 at 09:42:29PM -0500, Mike Bresnahan wrote: > Can someone satsify my curiosity as to why the channel hopping functionality > is implemented as a seperate process, rather than being part of the kismet > server? Because Kismet works with just about any card you can throw at it, including cards that you can't manually hop on (ie: Cisco, some others), these cards have a less suitable built in 'hopping' mode that tends to gravitate towards noisy channels (giving you a less accurate picture of what traffic there is in the area). Kismet simply listens on the interface for raw 802.11b frames, and goes from there. > > Mike Bresnahan > -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix GPG public key 0x01938203 From drechsau at geeks.org Fri May 10 18:41:25 2002 From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: References: <20020510195825.GA80303@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: <20020510224345.GA81579@Geeks.ORG> On Fri, May 10, 2002 at 05:02:05PM -0500, Nate Carlson wrote: > On Fri, 10 May 2002, Mike Horwath wrote: > > And connect to...where? > > Well, that's the part we don't have in place yet. :) Hate to sound like a naysayer, but bandwidth costs money. :( I wish it were free, I would love to give away some. -- Mike Horwath IRC: Drechsau drechsau@Geeks.ORG Home: 763-540-6815 1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN 55427 Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period. From natecars at real-time.com Fri May 10 19:00:28 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (natecars@real-time.com) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless MAN and Real-Time In-Reply-To: <20020510144442.8777.h015.c000.wm@mail.harris.net.criticalpath.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 May 2002, Paul wrote: > As there are a few 'real-timers' on the list, I wondered if you'd had > any thoughts about extending your ISP services to Wireless for the > Cities? I can imagine a hybrid setup, with the members of the group > providing some facilities (relay stations etc) in return for > cheap/free service, with you providing the pipe to the Internet. > > I only mention it because I live in St Louis Park, where the phone > lines suck, so no DSL, and I can't justify the cost of cable! But I'd > be happy to act as a relay station :) Yeah, we've talked about it. Haven't had time to seriously pursue anything, though.. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From joel at helgeson.com Fri May 10 19:06:29 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:55 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] TCWUG Website Mgmt / Logos In-Reply-To: <003e01c1f85b$3be9e060$5d22020a@CALVIN> Message-ID: <000701c1f87c$a655f990$2802a8c0@SECURITY> The logos look GREAT! I'm partial to logo#1. Joel R. Helgeson Director of Networking & Security Services SymetriQ Corporation, www.symetriq.com 8500 Normandale Lake Boulevard, Suite 1670 Bloomington, Minnesota 55437-3813 Office: (952) 921-8869 Cell: (651) 631-3013 -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of John D. Strohfus Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 2:45 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: [TCWUG] TCWUG Website Mgmt / Logos All: First, it was great to meet many of you at the face2face meeting this week. I look forward to formalizing some of our ideas and participating in a united effort. I think we can really do some good work once we get organized. First of all, thanks to whomever it is that did the website re-design and is doing the hosting. I think the site has a workable format for the time-being. I wanted to address a posting made last week or so ago about the TCWUG website format and logo. In addition to my day job I also have a small web dev company called Homepages Etc. I would be willing to help with any of the site content posting and redesign work etc. I also think that instead of trying to mess with a collab tool like "wiki" (to be fair I have never worked with it). A browser based admin system might work (we use Cold Fusion and MS Access mostly for these...kindof our specialty). To be most simplistic, we could just develop some site standards and templates for each section. People can post content inside the template and then just email the files to a designated person to post. I could help with that too if you want. In general I think opening up access or messing with collab tools will be more hassle than it's worth. If people can write basic html code or just write text in email and attach pictures it is rather simple to filter through a couple website admins and get posted. I could also do the hosting at some point if needed but I think that is all being handled nicely at this point (thx again to whomever is doing that, sorry missed the intros at the first part of the mtg). To start with I had one of my graphics contractors take a stab at a new logo. You can see them here for now: http://www.homepages-etc.com/tcwug/ I will monitor the list and take your suggestions and post more variations. I can also tally the votes and discuss at the next meeting. If the webadmin wants to snag them and move to www.tcwug.org that would be great. I can just email the mods to webmaster@tcwug.org. - John ----------------------------------- Homepages Etc., Inc. Internet Consulting Services 6870 Sherwood Road Woodbury, MN 55125 Phone: (877) 471-2057 Fax: (877) 471-2057 _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From dieman at ringworld.org Fri May 10 19:31:17 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: <20020510224345.GA81579@Geeks.ORG> References: <20020510195825.GA80303@Geeks.ORG> <20020510224345.GA81579@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: <20020511002122.GT15352@ringworld.org> * Mike Horwath [020510 19:09]: > Hate to sound like a naysayer, but bandwidth costs money. :( Thats why I'm advocating using a overlay network for just transporting between wireless hosts and making people figure out their own thing for getting to the 'net. Let people put up gateways and charge for them, for all I care. -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ From joel at helgeson.com Sat May 11 01:39:09 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Presentation Message-ID: <000001c1f8b1$0ac161b0$2802a8c0@SECURITY> I'm just curious to find out who was in attendance at the Wireless Networking presentation I have at the Strictly Business Expo on Thursday at 2:00. The title of the presentation was Securing your Wireless Network. I'm looking for some feedback, what did people think? Good or bad. Thanks Joel R. Helgeson Director of Networking & Security Services SymetriQ Corporation, www.symetriq.com 8500 Normandale Lake Boulevard, Suite 1670 Bloomington, Minnesota 55437-3813 Office: (952) 921-8869 Cell: (651) 631-3013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020511/750508ab/attachment.htm From mbresnah at visi.com Sat May 11 08:47:37 2002 From: mbresnah at visi.com (Mike Bresnahan) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points??? In-Reply-To: <20020510163749.F29673@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On > Behalf Of Matthew S. Hallacy > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 5:38 PM > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points??? > Because Kismet works with just about any card you can throw at > it, including > cards that you can't manually hop on (ie: Cisco, some others), these cards > have a less suitable built in 'hopping' mode that tends to > gravitate towards > noisy channels (giving you a less accurate picture of what > traffic there is > in the area). > > Kismet simply listens on the interface for raw 802.11b frames, > and goes from > there. I don't understand why card portability precludes building the prism2_hopper functionality in the kismet server, but perhaps that is a discusion for the kismet list. Anyway, thanks for the info. By the way, I live in the warehouse district of downtown Minneapolis and I cannot see the downtown Minneapolis access points displayed on the map you made with kismet. I'm using a Linksys WPC11 v2.5. I guess I'd need a better antennae to see them. Not that I really care to see them. I was simply surprised to see so many networks overlaying my area. Mike Bresnahan From mbresnah at visi.com Sat May 11 08:47:43 2002 From: mbresnah at visi.com (Mike Bresnahan) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Special Interest Groups. In-Reply-To: <20020508153437.B25585@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: I would like to participate in #1 or #2, but it's not obvious to me how I could help. I live in the warehouse district of downtown Minneapolis on the first floor of a 4 story apartment building surrounded by other 4+ story buildings. My line of sight out the windows is limited to 50 meters currently and will be reduced to less than 10 meters when the building next door is finished. My guess is that this precludes me from providing any kind of public access point or possibly even accessing someone else's. Is my guess correct? On the bright side, there is currently a 20-30 meter tall construction crane right outside my window. I could covertly place an antennae on top of that. ;> Mike Bresnahan From sulrich at botwerks.org Sat May 11 10:10:18 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Presentation In-Reply-To: <000001c1f8b1$0ac161b0$2802a8c0@SECURITY> References: <000001c1f8b1$0ac161b0$2802a8c0@SECURITY> Message-ID: <20020511095426.A18077@botwerks.org> joel- unfortunately, i wasn't able to make the presentation (didn't make it to the show at all this year). do you have a slide deck online anywhere for people who weren't able to make it to peruse? when last we saw our hero (Saturday, May 11, 2002), Joel R. Helgeson was madly tapping out: > I'm just curious to find out who was in attendance at the Wireless > Networking presentation I have at the Strictly Business Expo on Thursday > at 2:00. The title of the presentation was Securing your Wireless > Network. I'm looking for some feedback, what did people think? Good or > bad. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From wirelessguyinstpaul at attbi.com Sun May 12 01:45:37 2002 From: wirelessguyinstpaul at attbi.com (P Sheehy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Ready to rock and roll Message-ID: <3CDDEFFB.9BA12510@attbi.com> I'd like to vote for Andy's "option two." More "hot spots." It seems like a good place to start. I, for one, am ready to start figuring out how to get on the air. I've been holding off buying any wireless gear until I got a better sense from this list and other sources about how to do all of this. P. Sheehy From natecars at real-time.com Mon May 13 10:09:59 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: <20020510224345.GA81579@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 May 2002, Mike Horwath wrote: > Hate to sound like a naysayer, but bandwidth costs money. :( Never said there wouldn't be a charge for access. To start with, it'll just be us hobbiests, and I'm sure some of us will be willing to give away (semi-legally?) our cable/dsl bandwidth to other real geeks.. but, once we start to grow, we'll have to figure out a way to charge for it. > I wish it were free, I would love to give away some. You _sure_ you don't want to donate 3mbit of that shiny new OC3 to tcwug? It's not like you're even stressing it yet... heck, that'd even make it worth turning TCWUG into a real nonprofit so you can get a writeoff for it! :) -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From drechsau at geeks.org Mon May 13 10:30:17 2002 From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: References: <20020510224345.GA81579@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: <20020513152158.GA13257@Geeks.ORG> On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:53:18AM -0500, Nate Carlson wrote: > On Fri, 10 May 2002, Mike Horwath wrote: > > Hate to sound like a naysayer, but bandwidth costs money. :( > > Never said there wouldn't be a charge for access. > > To start with, it'll just be us hobbiests, and I'm sure some of us will be > willing to give away (semi-legally?) our cable/dsl bandwidth to other real > geeks.. but, once we start to grow, we'll have to figure out a way to > charge for it. And how are you going to 'share' that bandwidth? Some horrible and massive NAT table and central router? Sounds like a bitch to maintain. A big ass caching proxy server? (which would be very cool). > > I wish it were free, I would love to give away some. > > You _sure_ you don't want to donate 3mbit of that shiny new OC3 to > tcwug? It's not like you're even stressing it yet... heck, that'd > even make it worth turning TCWUG into a real nonprofit so you can > get a writeoff for it! :) I don't make those decisions alone. Also, how would you get 'my' bandwidth? I am not going to pay for more roof space (already did that for other projects) and while I would happily host it out of my home, the T1 costs are still $220/T1 per month. And being in Golden Valley - who lives around me to 'relay' off of? Then let's get into the issue that 802.11b doesn't allow me a nice clean solution for my inhouse wireless, think of how much interference I'll get if I had a roofmount antenna? :) If you guys can find a way to get the bandwidth from 'me', I'll find a way to donate some. There will be a big AUP put into place, though, as I can not stand abuse or theft of services. This might make some people shy away because I am a hardass. So be it. -- Mike Horwath IRC: Drechsau drechsau@Geeks.ORG Home: 763-540-6815 1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN 55427 Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period. From joel at helgeson.com Mon May 13 11:30:38 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Presentation In-Reply-To: <20020511095426.A18077@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <000001c1fa98$63b12010$7e0b0a0a@SECURITY> I am very proud to announce that the presentation I gave at the Strictly Business Expo was awarded "Best Vendor Presentation" at the show by Cygnus Expositions, the company that put the trade show together. This presentation had the highest turnout out of any other presentation given at the expo (My mother should be so proud). So thank you to all of you who attended. I'll be more than happy to deliver this presentation at our next TCWUG meeting if any of you are interested in seeing it. Additionally, my company was acknowledged with having the best handouts (flashing balls & big black bags to carry crap in) as well as having an outstanding booth for its design and being so eye-catching. TTFN, Joel R. Helgeson Director of Networking & Security Services SymetriQ Corporation, www.symetriq.com 8500 Normandale Lake Boulevard, Suite 1670 Bloomington, Minnesota 55437-3813 Office: (952) 921-8869 Cell: (651) 631-3013 -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of steve ulrich Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 9:54 AM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Presentation joel- unfortunately, i wasn't able to make the presentation (didn't make it to the show at all this year). do you have a slide deck online anywhere for people who weren't able to make it to peruse? when last we saw our hero (Saturday, May 11, 2002), Joel R. Helgeson was madly tapping out: > I'm just curious to find out who was in attendance at the Wireless > Networking presentation I have at the Strictly Business Expo on Thursday > at 2:00. The title of the presentation was Securing your Wireless > Network. I'm looking for some feedback, what did people think? Good or > bad. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From natecars at real-time.com Mon May 13 11:59:44 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Presentation In-Reply-To: <000001c1f8b1$0ac161b0$2802a8c0@SECURITY> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 May 2002, Joel R. Helgeson wrote: > I'm just curious to find out who was in attendance at the Wireless > Networking presentation I have at the Strictly Business Expo on > Thursday at 2:00. The title of the presentation was Securing your > Wireless Network. I'm looking for some feedback, what did people > think? Good or bad. Joel, Missed the presentation -- if you have slides, it'd be much appreciated. Did you just cover the built-in stuff (LEAP, 802.1x, etc), or did you also go over using IPSec (or other VPN technology) on top of the link to secure it? (Or did you go the non-technical route, as many people at the expo are the marketing types.. heh!) Also, as many of us are unix geeks with text mailers, would you mind disabling HTML e-mail in your client? Kind of tough to read sometimes. :) -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From natecars at real-time.com Mon May 13 12:09:37 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: <20020513152158.GA13257@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 May 2002, Mike Horwath wrote: > And how are you going to 'share' that bandwidth? > > Some horrible and massive NAT table and central router? Sounds like a > bitch to maintain. Again, question we haven't even come close to tackling yet. :) Yeah.. a central NAT table would be a real pain.. hrmm.. suggsetions, anyone? > A big ass caching proxy server? (which would be very cool). Yeah, it would be.. something to go on the list of things we want. > Also, how would you get 'my' bandwidth? I am not going to pay for > more roof space (already did that for other projects) and while I > would happily host it out of my home, the T1 costs are still $220/T1 > per month. And being in Golden Valley - who lives around me to > 'relay' off of? Then let's get into the issue that 802.11b doesn't > allow me a nice clean solution for my inhouse wireless, think of how > much interference I'll get if I had a roofmount antenna? Actually, if you do things right, the roofmount antenna won't interfere at all with your in home stuff.. if you run them on two of the non-overlapping channels (1 and 10 come to mind, as everything runs 6 per default), you shouldn't see interference from the two separate wireless networks. What type of problems are you having with your wireless 'net at home? Interference with phones + microwaves, or just building materials in the house don't lend themselves to 802.11b? > If you guys can find a way to get the bandwidth from 'me', I'll find a > way to donate some. There will be a big AUP put into place, though, > as I can not stand abuse or theft of services. This might make some > people shy away because I am a hardass. So be it. Really? Cool! I was just joking around. :) AUP == good, in my opinion.. if we are giving people 'net access over wireless (paid or for free), we need to make sure they aren't doing things they shouldn't be with it. Probably need to come up with a TCWUG-wide AUP, and then allow people who decide to allow 'net access to tack on their own? -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From andyw at pobox.com Mon May 13 12:26:35 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Presentation In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:46:00AM -0500 References: <000001c1f8b1$0ac161b0$2802a8c0@SECURITY> Message-ID: <20020513120947.C16745@florence.linkmargin.com> Nate Carlson wrote: > [...] > Also, as many of us are unix geeks with text mailers, would you mind > disabling HTML e-mail in your client? Kind of tough to read sometimes. :) I'm using Mutt here and haven't yet seen any html-bombs from Joel. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From sulrich at botwerks.org Mon May 13 14:05:01 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Range of 802.11b In-Reply-To: <20020513152158.GA13257@Geeks.ORG> References: <20020510224345.GA81579@Geeks.ORG> <20020513152158.GA13257@Geeks.ORG> Message-ID: <20020513190139.GA12270@botwerks.org> bearing in mind that most of these questions are applicable in an infrastructure type application. unless people want to build out a tunneling infrastructure (which will chew up their b/w anyway) these questions are largely moot. when last we saw our hero (Monday, May 13, 2002), Mike Horwath was madly tapping out: > On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 09:53:18AM -0500, Nate Carlson wrote: > > On Fri, 10 May 2002, Mike Horwath wrote: > > > Hate to sound like a naysayer, but bandwidth costs money. :( > > > > Never said there wouldn't be a charge for access. > > > > To start with, it'll just be us hobbiests, and I'm sure some of us will be > > willing to give away (semi-legally?) our cable/dsl bandwidth to other real > > geeks.. but, once we start to grow, we'll have to figure out a way to > > charge for it. > > And how are you going to 'share' that bandwidth? > > Some horrible and massive NAT table and central router? Sounds like a > bitch to maintain. > > A big ass caching proxy server? (which would be very cool). there are a variety of mechanisms available to share b/w in this manner. captive portals with b/w limiting mechanisms are pretty straightforward to configure. applying intelligence at the edge to address this is clearly the most scalable means of doing this. if this is a route that folks are interested in going we need to make sure that there are "canned" configurations that simply require filling in the blanks to get online. i can discuss a couple of sample architectures for doing this at our next meeting if people are interested. but given the geographic difficulties associated with this type of network buildout i surmise that this won't be a real issue for quite some time. > > > I wish it were free, I would love to give away some. > > > > You _sure_ you don't want to donate 3mbit of that shiny new OC3 to > > tcwug? It's not like you're even stressing it yet... heck, that'd > > even make it worth turning TCWUG into a real nonprofit so you can > > get a writeoff for it! :) interesting thought given some of the recent activities taking place with the other wireless groups around the country. > I don't make those decisions alone. > > Also, how would you get 'my' bandwidth? I am not going to pay for > more roof space (already did that for other projects) and while I > would happily host it out of my home, the T1 costs are still $220/T1 > per month. And being in Golden Valley - who lives around me to > 'relay' off of? Then let's get into the issue that 802.11b doesn't > allow me a nice clean solution for my inhouse wireless, think of how > much interference I'll get if I had a roofmount antenna? > > > If you guys can find a way to get the bandwidth from 'me', I'll find a > way to donate some. There will be a big AUP put into place, though, > as I can not stand abuse or theft of services. This might make some > people shy away because I am a hardass. So be it. this is a nice segue into the issue of abuse. while creation of a public network is a great thing from a convenience perspective it is also subject to abuse. people willing to share their b/w need to have mechanisms to limit their exposure to this kind of abuse and mitigate triggering flags on their SP monitoring mechanisms as well as staying off the spam filter lists. captive portals do provide a mechanism for circumventing some forms of abuse. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From sulrich at botwerks.org Mon May 13 16:04:08 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Presentation In-Reply-To: <000001c1fa98$63b12010$7e0b0a0a@SECURITY> References: <20020511095426.A18077@botwerks.org> <000001c1fa98$63b12010$7e0b0a0a@SECURITY> Message-ID: <20020513204839.GA14048@botwerks.org> joel - congratulations on what sounds to have been a good turn out and presentation as well as kudos on the the apparently impressive swag. i'm still curious as to whether or not you have the presentation slides available online, for perusal and education. like nate i too am curious as to the presentation and while the next meeting isn't all that far away i'm always in the market for interesting reading material. when last we saw our hero (Monday, May 13, 2002), Joel R. Helgeson was madly tapping out: > I am very proud to announce that the presentation I gave at the Strictly > Business Expo was awarded "Best Vendor Presentation" at the show by > Cygnus Expositions, the company that put the trade show together. This > presentation had the highest turnout out of any other presentation given > at the expo (My mother should be so proud). So thank you to all of you > who attended. > > I'll be more than happy to deliver this presentation at our next TCWUG > meeting if any of you are interested in seeing it. > > Additionally, my company was acknowledged with having the best handouts > (flashing balls & big black bags to carry crap in) as well as having an > outstanding booth for its design and being so eye-catching. > {snipped - misc .signature} > > > -----Original Message----- > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On > Behalf Of steve ulrich > Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 9:54 AM > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Presentation > > > joel- > > unfortunately, i wasn't able to make the presentation (didn't make it to > the show at all this year). do you have a slide deck online anywhere > for > people who weren't able to make it to peruse? > > > when last we saw our hero (Saturday, May 11, 2002), > Joel R. Helgeson was madly tapping out: > > I'm just curious to find out who was in attendance at the Wireless > > Networking presentation I have at the Strictly Business Expo on > Thursday > > at 2:00. The title of the presentation was Securing your Wireless > > Network. I'm looking for some feedback, what did people think? Good > or > > bad. > {snipped - misc .signature} -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From poptix at techmonkeys.org Mon May 13 20:21:16 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Presentation In-Reply-To: <000001c1fa98$63b12010$7e0b0a0a@SECURITY>; from joel@helgeson.com on Mon, May 13, 2002 at 11:08:14AM -0500 References: <20020511095426.A18077@botwerks.org> <000001c1fa98$63b12010$7e0b0a0a@SECURITY> Message-ID: <20020513183940.O29673@techmonkeys.org> > Additionally, my company was acknowledged with having the best handouts > (flashing balls & big black bags to carry crap in) as well as having an > outstanding booth for its design and being so eye-catching. After staring at the flashing red ball for a cumulative amount of time well over 2-3 hours I've come to the conclusion that it's a mind control device. Unfortunately I've been unable to find my tin hat. > Joel R. Helgeson -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix GPG public key 0x01938203 From goober at schulte.org Mon May 13 22:00:04 2002 From: goober at schulte.org (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:56 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Presentation References: <20020511095426.A18077@botwerks.org> <000001c1fa98$63b12010$7e0b0a0a@SECURITY> <20020513183940.O29673@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <004d01c1faec$98a376c0$7cc17618@jennifer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew S. Hallacy" To: Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Presentation > > Additionally, my company was acknowledged with having the best handouts > > (flashing balls & big black bags to carry crap in) as well as having an > > outstanding booth for its design and being so eye-catching. > > After staring at the flashing red ball for a cumulative amount of time well > over 2-3 hours I've come to the conclusion that it's a mind control device. > > Unfortunately I've been unable to find my tin hat. > > > Joel R. Helgeson > > -- > Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified > http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix GPG public key 0x01938203 The irony of it all... the ball says "Symetriq", yet the lights flash in an alternating pattern... Yes, i too have spent a great deal staring at the ball, as i have a bit of free time on my hands. :) -- Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 "Watch out for that bus!" From kritchie at kritchie.org Tue May 14 23:15:25 2002 From: kritchie at kritchie.org (Kent Ritchie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless Security Presentation In-Reply-To: <20020513204839.GA14048@botwerks.org> Message-ID: Wasn't there a $10k challenge for hacking a wireless network at the show? What was the result? I don't see anything posted on the Symetriq website. -- Kent Ritchie kritchie@kritchie.org From asim_beg at hotmail.com Wed May 15 11:43:45 2002 From: asim_beg at hotmail.com (Asim Beg (Hotmail)) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Mini-PCI 802.11b card? Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can buy a mini-pci 802.11b card with the prism chipset. I am looking for an online store. - I need one with an antenna jack or something for adding a pigtail - I don't want to buy a PCI card and than take it apart to get to the mini-pci card Thanks Asim From cncole at earthlink.net Wed May 15 18:19:01 2002 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Mini-PCI 802.11b card? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002e01c1fc64$ec4d69b0$6c01a8c0@HPZT> I got a very good price on the Linksys router/access plus a PCMCIA card from Amazon.com This PCMCIA card doesn't have an external antenna, but Amazon was running a special price, doesn't charge tax, and for that sale didn't charge postage. LinkSys makes a PCI card with external antenna, however. Amazon also carries other brands so you probably can find something there. eBay is a likely choice as well, but watch carefully to see which sellers are established as retail dealers and what their shipping charges will be. Avoid the personal sales for things like this (though I've had excellent experiences buying from individuals on other kinds of stuff). eBay has some very good bargains on new WLAN stuff, but wasn't good for the LinkSys stuff I wanted. eBay is usually best for more mature products where sales demand and distribution has leveled or the product may be in a sunset phase. eBay is NOT good for fad products like the LinkSys stuff I got. Between those two sources, I'd bet you have all the useful bases covered. I need a PCMCIA card with connector for an external antenna.. would that be the Orinoco Gold from the U of M bookstore? What's the U of M price? FYI, that is also available on eBay for about $66 plus $8 shipping. > Does anyone know where I can buy a mini-pci 802.11b card with > the prism > chipset. I am looking for an online store. > > - I need one with an antenna jack or something for adding a pigtail > - I don't want to buy a PCI card and than take it apart to get to the > mini-pci card > > Thanks > > Asim From andyw at pobox.com Fri May 17 10:18:31 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Mini-PCI 802.11b card? In-Reply-To: ; from asim_beg@hotmail.com on Wed, May 15, 2002 at 11:33:59AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20020517101022.A28284@florence.linkmargin.com> Asim Beg (Hotmail) wrote: > Does anyone know where I can buy a mini-pci 802.11b card with the prism > chipset. I am looking for an online store. Here are two manufacturers that I know of: o actiontec http://www.actiontec.com/products/broadband/80211bminipci/80211bminipci_overview.html o ambit http://www.ambit.com.tw/product/com/wireless-product/index.htm (no link there to Mini PCI, but I know they exist.) I don't know how you'd go about obtaining onesy-twosy quantities of these, none of their distributers carry the mini-pci cards as far as I know. The simplest route (albeit not the cheapest, which is probably to rip apart a Linksys WPC11, which you've said you don't want to do, but I can't say I understand unless you're talking serious quantities) might be to get one as a laptop accessory. One or more of these are probably simply relabeled versions of one of the above, but you could try locating: Dell TrueMobile 1150 Series Mini-PCI Card Fujitsu Mini PCI module model# MBH7WL01-M Gateway MiniPCI Model# 6001931 Hewlett-Packard Wireless LAN Mini PCI Card 802MIP IBM ThinkPad 802.11b Wireless LAN Mini-PCI Adapter with 56K Modem NEC MiniPCI part# 853-910563 Quanta Model # MiniPCI Wireless LAN Card/WMI Sony PCG-Series MiniPCI Card Toshiba MiniPCI Model # PA3171U-1MPC Toshiba Wireless LAN Mini-PCI Card / PA3070U-1MPC Also look out for: Intersil Prism III MiniPCI Module model# 37200M Cisco Aironet 350 Series Mini-PCI (MPI350) The above list was taken from the wifi certification page (http://www.wirelessethernet.org/certified_products.asp) Let us know what you find, where you found it and how much it cost you. For instance, adding a Mini-PCI 802.11b adapter when you order a Dell laptop adds $99, but I'll bet you can't get it after-market from Dell that cheaply. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From jpschewe at mtu.net Sat May 18 22:03:14 2002 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Linksys WMP11 and Linux Message-ID: <3CE70442.1080905@mtu.net> Has anyone on the list successfully gotten the Linksys WMP11 card to work under Linux? This is the PCI version of the card. I can ping sites if I turn off encryption. However if I turn encryption on, WEP128, I get errors trying to ping a site, and nothing in the message log indicating an error. Any ideas? Thanks. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe | jpschewe@mtu.net For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From poptix at techmonkeys.org Sun May 19 08:51:10 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Linksys WMP11 and Linux In-Reply-To: <3CE70442.1080905@mtu.net>; from jpschewe@mtu.net on Sat, May 18, 2002 at 08:47:46PM -0500 References: <3CE70442.1080905@mtu.net> Message-ID: <20020519073736.G29673@techmonkeys.org> On Sat, May 18, 2002 at 08:47:46PM -0500, Jon Schewe wrote: > Has anyone on the list successfully gotten the Linksys WMP11 card to > work under Linux? This is the PCI version of the card. I can ping > sites if I turn off encryption. However if I turn encryption on, > WEP128, I get errors trying to ping a site, and nothing in the message > log indicating an error. Any ideas? > Are you connecting to an Access Point, or are you in Ad-Hoc mode? Are you manually entering the WEP key, or are you entering a phrase that's being converting to hex? What drivers are you using? > Thanks. > > -- > Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe | jpschewe@mtu.net -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix GPG public key 0x01938203 From jpschewe at mtu.net Sun May 19 14:44:15 2002 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Linksys WMP11 and Linux References: <3CE70442.1080905@mtu.net> <20020519073736.G29673@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <3CE7F420.5030004@mtu.net> Matthew S. Hallacy wrote: > On Sat, May 18, 2002 at 08:47:46PM -0500, Jon Schewe wrote: > >>Has anyone on the list successfully gotten the Linksys WMP11 card to >>work under Linux? This is the PCI version of the card. I can ping >>sites if I turn off encryption. However if I turn encryption on, >>WEP128, I get errors trying to ping a site, and nothing in the message >>log indicating an error. Any ideas? >> >> > > Are you connecting to an Access Point, or are you in Ad-Hoc mode? Access Point. > Are you manually entering the WEP key, or are you entering a phrase > that's being converting to hex? What drivers are you using? Manually entering the keys, I'm not confident the passphrase generators are compatible. The drivers I'm using are the linux-wlan drivers. I'm not aware of any others. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe | jpschewe@mtu.net For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From chrome at real-time.com Sun May 19 22:35:06 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] OpenBSD authenticating per-user packet-filter rules Message-ID: <20020519222056.E6128@real-time.com> for those of you with OpenBSD firewalls, this tool: http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=authpf&sektion=8 looks like it does something similar to what I'm told NoCatAuth does. basically, you ssh to the gateway, log in to an account with this as your shell (or, I presume you could start this after logging in), and as long as you stay logged in, it sets up packet-filter rules specific to you. not as simple for the user as NoCatAuth, but possibly more flexible? (dunno, I've never researched NoCatAuth). in any case, it's a system builtin, rather than an add-on package, so that offers some advantages. going to have to experiment with this when I set up my new firewall. Carl Soderstrom. -- Network Engineer Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From andyw at pobox.com Mon May 20 12:10:42 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Linksys WMP11 and Linux In-Reply-To: <3CE7F420.5030004@mtu.net>; from jpschewe@mtu.net on Sun, May 19, 2002 at 01:51:12PM -0500 References: <3CE70442.1080905@mtu.net> <20020519073736.G29673@techmonkeys.org> <3CE7F420.5030004@mtu.net> Message-ID: <20020520115622.A14866@florence.linkmargin.com> Jon Schewe wrote: > [...] > > Are you manually entering the WEP key, or are you entering a phrase > > that's being converting to hex? What drivers are you using? > > > Manually entering the keys, I'm not confident the passphrase generators > are compatible. The drivers I'm using are the linux-wlan drivers. I'm > not aware of any others. What version of linux-wlan-ng are you using ? What is your AP ? When you're running with WEP, what does "iwconfig " report ? It is possible that you're not even associating with the AP. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From clay at fandre.com Mon May 20 12:42:46 2002 From: clay at fandre.com (Clay Fandre) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Speaker for next TCLUG meeting Message-ID: <20020520173506.GB20749@fandre.com> Anyone interested in giving a talk at the next TCLUG meeting? (June 8th) I'd like to have the topic "Wireless with Linux" or something. Maybe bring in an AP and configure a 802.11 card in Linux. Anyone using a GPS with Linux? -- Clay From andyw at pobox.com Mon May 20 13:31:52 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Speaker for next TCLUG meeting In-Reply-To: <20020520173506.GB20749@fandre.com>; from clay@fandre.com on Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:35:11PM -0500 References: <20020520173506.GB20749@fandre.com> Message-ID: <20020520132327.A15153@florence.linkmargin.com> Clay Fandre wrote: > Anyone interested in giving a talk at the next TCLUG meeting? (June > 8th) I'd like to have the topic "Wireless with Linux" or something. > Maybe bring in an AP and configure a 802.11 card in Linux. Anyone > using a GPS with Linux? How about using Linux as your AP ? I've been having a blast goofing around with the hostap driver, and it's a fairly natural fit with anyone using Linux as their firewall. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From clay at fandre.com Mon May 20 14:01:56 2002 From: clay at fandre.com (Clay Fandre) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Speaker for next TCLUG meeting In-Reply-To: <20020520132327.A15153@florence.linkmargin.com> References: <20020520173506.GB20749@fandre.com> <20020520132327.A15153@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020520183613.GE20749@fandre.com> So are you volunteering? On Mon, 20 May 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > Clay Fandre wrote: > > Anyone interested in giving a talk at the next TCLUG meeting? (June > > 8th) I'd like to have the topic "Wireless with Linux" or something. > > Maybe bring in an AP and configure a 802.11 card in Linux. Anyone > > using a GPS with Linux? > > How about using Linux as your AP ? I've been having > a blast goofing around with the hostap driver, and > it's a fairly natural fit with anyone using Linux > as their firewall. > -- > andyw@pobox.com > > Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From sulrich at botwerks.org Mon May 20 17:44:06 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Speaker for next TCLUG meeting In-Reply-To: <20020520132327.A15153@florence.linkmargin.com> References: <20020520173506.GB20749@fandre.com> <20020520132327.A15153@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020520211431.GA53958@botwerks.org> i don't have any experience with the hostap stuff but i've running a spare freebsd box in ad-hoc mode with nocatauth and i've been pretty impressed with this. i was thinking that i would be willing to present a few topologies that allow the sharing of an access point w/o giving all the b/w away, as well as a nocatauth preso. however, i know that i would really appreciate some information on GPSs. i'm looking for a GPS for myself and i would appreciate any info that people have on their experiences with the garmin etrex products, especially in conjunction with gpsdrive. when last we saw our hero (Monday, May 20, 2002), Andy Warner was madly tapping out: > Clay Fandre wrote: > > Anyone interested in giving a talk at the next TCLUG meeting? (June > > 8th) I'd like to have the topic "Wireless with Linux" or something. > > Maybe bring in an AP and configure a 802.11 card in Linux. Anyone > > using a GPS with Linux? > > How about using Linux as your AP ? I've been having a blast goofing > around with the hostap driver, and it's a fairly natural fit with > anyone using Linux as their firewall. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From chrome at real-time.com Mon May 20 18:20:08 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Speaker for next TCLUG meeting In-Reply-To: <20020520211431.GA53958@botwerks.org>; from sulrich@botwerks.org on Mon, May 20, 2002 at 04:14:31PM -0500 References: <20020520173506.GB20749@fandre.com> <20020520132327.A15153@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020520211431.GA53958@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020520180710.E3010@real-time.com> > impressed with this. i was thinking that i would be willing to > present a few topologies that allow the sharing of an access point w/o > giving all the b/w away, as well as a nocatauth preso. I'd certainly like to hear more about NoCatAuth (what it does, how it works, how to configure it under *BSD). Carl Soderstrom. -- Network Engineer Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From jpschewe at mtu.net Mon May 20 20:14:04 2002 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Linksys WMP11 and Linux References: <3CE70442.1080905@mtu.net> <20020519073736.G29673@techmonkeys.org> <3CE7F420.5030004@mtu.net> <20020520115622.A14866@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <3CE9978E.2050207@mtu.net> Andy Warner wrote: > Jon Schewe wrote: > >>[...] >> >>>Are you manually entering the WEP key, or are you entering a phrase >>>that's being converting to hex? What drivers are you using? >>> >> >>Manually entering the keys, I'm not confident the passphrase generators >>are compatible. The drivers I'm using are the linux-wlan drivers. I'm >>not aware of any others. >> > > What version of linux-wlan-ng are you using ? > 0.1.13 > What is your AP ? Linksys WAP11 > When you're running with WEP, what does "iwconfig " I don't have iwconfig as a command. I've got ipconfig and that lists what one would expect for an active interface. > report ? It is possible that you're not even associating > with the AP. How would one tell this? -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe | jpschewe@mtu.net For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From andyw at pobox.com Mon May 20 21:14:04 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Linksys WMP11 and Linux In-Reply-To: <3CE9978E.2050207@mtu.net>; from jpschewe@mtu.net on Mon, May 20, 2002 at 07:40:46PM -0500 References: <3CE70442.1080905@mtu.net> <20020519073736.G29673@techmonkeys.org> <3CE7F420.5030004@mtu.net> <20020520115622.A14866@florence.linkmargin.com> <3CE9978E.2050207@mtu.net> Message-ID: <20020520210254.A16339@florence.linkmargin.com> Jon Schewe wrote: > > When you're running with WEP, what does "iwconfig " > > I don't have iwconfig as a command. I've got ipconfig and that lists > what one would expect for an active interface. > > > report ? It is possible that you're not even associating > > with the AP. > > How would one tell this? Find/install the wireless-tools rpm (or build from source etc), then you can use the iwconfig command to manipulate the interface (set keys etc etc) You'll want iwconfig anyway, here's a list of rpms you can pick from: http://www.rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=wireless-tools If you run it and it reports an AP mac address of all 0s or all 4s, then it means that your client has not successfully authenticated with the AP. When you enable wep on the AP, are you also changing the authentication from open system to shared secret ? -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From jpschewe at mtu.net Mon May 20 21:16:49 2002 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Linksys WMP11 and Linux References: <3CE70442.1080905@mtu.net> <20020519073736.G29673@techmonkeys.org> <3CE7F420.5030004@mtu.net> <20020520115622.A14866@florence.linkmargin.com> <3CE9978E.2050207@mtu.net> Message-ID: <3CE9AC9D.4040306@mtu.net> >> When you're running with WEP, what does "iwconfig " > I found the wireless tools and iwconfig was in it. Here's the output: Warning : Device wlan0 has been compiled with version 12 of Wireless Extension, while we are using version 11. Some things may be broken... wlan0 IEEE 802.11-b ESSID:"eggplant-wireless" Mode:Managed Frequency:2.437GHz Access Point: 00:06:25:50:A8:DD Link Quality:92/100 Signal level:-108 dBm Noise level:-256 dBm Rx invalid nwid:0 invalid crypt:265 invalid misc:0 The MAC address found there matches the MAC address of my access point too, so I'm assuming it's finding the ap. However the invalid crypt packets doesn't look too good. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe | jpschewe@mtu.net For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From jpschewe at mtu.net Mon May 20 21:36:52 2002 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Linksys WMP11 and Linux References: <3CE70442.1080905@mtu.net> <20020519073736.G29673@techmonkeys.org> <3CE7F420.5030004@mtu.net> <20020520115622.A14866@florence.linkmargin.com> <3CE9978E.2050207@mtu.net> <20020520210254.A16339@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <3CE9B0FF.2030702@mtu.net> Andy Warner wrote: > When you enable wep on the AP, are you also changing the authentication > from open system to shared secret ? I've got three options: open, shared, both. Which should I have it on? I have yet to figure out what exactly these mean. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe | jpschewe@mtu.net For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From poptix at techmonkeys.org Tue May 21 06:12:02 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:57 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Speaker for next TCLUG meeting In-Reply-To: <20020520211431.GA53958@botwerks.org>; from sulrich@botwerks.org on Mon, May 20, 2002 at 04:14:31PM -0500 References: <20020520173506.GB20749@fandre.com> <20020520132327.A15153@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020520211431.GA53958@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020521055645.A24953@techmonkeys.org> On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 04:14:31PM -0500, steve ulrich wrote: > [snip] > however, i know that i would really appreciate some information on > GPSs. i'm looking for a GPS for myself and i would appreciate any > info that people have on their experiences with the garmin etrex > products, especially in conjunction with gpsdrive. > I've used all of the eTrex units (except for the cheapest yellow one) with linux, they're all pretty much the same except for built-in memory for downloading maps, and the Vista (my current unit) has a built in barometer and electronic compass (instead of relying on movement to figure out which direction is north), they all work fine when put into NMEA mode with gpsd, which is what gpsdrive uses. (gpsd is a GPS multiplexing utility that allows programs to connect to a TCP port instead of locking up the GPS unit to one program at a time) > > -- > steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org > PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix GPG public key 0x01938203 From kritchie at kritchie.org Tue May 21 09:30:14 2002 From: kritchie at kritchie.org (Kent Ritchie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Would like to borrow indoor omni antenna In-Reply-To: <20020521055645.A24953@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: I am trying to overcome a distance barrier within my apartment building and am wondering if anyone has an indoor omni antenna and pigtail to a Linksys BEFW11S4 that I could borrow for a night or two the first week in June. I seem to be about 20 - 30 feet short of usable range. Would putting a higher gain antenna on the AP most likely overcome this? I would presume that it would boost power to the client, but would it also be more sensitive to the client's signal? I am hoping to avoid putting an external antenna on my Orinoco Gold PC Card. I would like to try to find a solution before plunking down the money for an antenna and cable. Thanks! -- _______________________________________________________________ Kent Ritchie kritchie@kritchie.org +1 612/875-3560 Web: www.kritchie.org AIM: foo2bar YIM: kcritchie MSN: foo2bar From andyw at pobox.com Tue May 21 10:14:01 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Would like to borrow indoor omni antenna In-Reply-To: ; from kritchie@kritchie.org on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 09:27:46AM -0500 References: <20020521055645.A24953@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <20020521100412.E16339@florence.linkmargin.com> Kent Ritchie wrote: > I am trying to overcome a distance barrier within my apartment building > and am wondering if anyone has an indoor omni antenna and pigtail to a > Linksys BEFW11S4 that I could borrow for a night or two the first week in > June. I've got a 5db colinear you can borrow, and the RP-TNC pigtail you'll need to hook it up. You're welcome to borrow it for a couple of nights. > I seem to be about 20 - 30 feet short of usable range. Would putting a > higher gain antenna on the AP most likely overcome this? I would presume > that it would boost power to the client, but would it also be more > sensitive to the client's signal? I am hoping to avoid putting an > external antenna on my Orinoco Gold PC Card. Any gain applies equally to transmit and receive, so you should be good to go. The antennas in the PCMCIA cards are pretty awful, you may see the best improvement by adding a small antenna to the orinoco. I've got an orinoco pigtail you can borrow at the same time, so you can compare and contrast. Something like the maxrad tape antenna works well: http://www.maxrad.com/maxrad_products/broadband/2-6ghz/pdf/mig_tape_mount_omni_series.pdf -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From poptix at techmonkeys.org Tue May 21 11:31:57 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] New maps Message-ID: <20020521111217.B27927@techmonkeys.org> Hi, I've put up some new and more accurate maps of the twin cities. http://www.poptix.net/gallery/radiation Questions and comments are welcome, if you have a specific area you'd like mapped (such as your home) I'm accepting requests (no promises), zoomed maps are available if you provide the address or gps coordinates. -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix GPG public key 0x01938203 From kritchie at kritchie.org Tue May 21 13:26:52 2002 From: kritchie at kritchie.org (Kent Ritchie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] New maps In-Reply-To: <20020521111217.B27927@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 May 2002, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote: > I've put up some new and more accurate maps of the twin cities. > > http://www.poptix.net/gallery/radiation Could you explain the setup you used to gather this data? What kind of antenna, etc. What are the colorful "blotches" and how do they differ from the "dots"? What would one need to see one of the wide coverage circles, etc? Thanks. -- _______________________________________________________________ Kent Ritchie kritchie@kritchie.org +1 612/875-3560 Web: www.kritchie.org AIM: foo2bar YIM: kcritchie MSN: foo2bar From andyw at pobox.com Tue May 21 14:58:19 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] New maps In-Reply-To: <20020521111217.B27927@techmonkeys.org>; from poptix@techmonkeys.org on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 11:12:17AM -0500 References: <20020521111217.B27927@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <20020521144408.B18603@florence.linkmargin.com> Matthew S. Hallacy wrote: > Questions and comments are welcome, if you have a specific area you'd like > mapped (such as your home) I'm accepting requests (no promises), zoomed > maps are available if you provide the address or gps coordinates. Can you share the bouncing ball that you follow to create these from lat/long/signal/noise data ? If my memory isn't failing me, I think you mentioned downloaded maps, overlayed with the data. I've got a raft of data that I'd like to plot, if you can teach us(me) to fish. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From goober at schulte.org Tue May 21 15:17:40 2002 From: goober at schulte.org (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] New maps References: <20020521111217.B27927@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <001201c20102$95f4b580$7cc17618@jennifer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew S. Hallacy" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 11:12 AM Subject: [TCWUG] New maps > Hi, > > I've put up some new and more accurate maps of the twin cities. > > http://www.poptix.net/gallery/radiation > > Questions and comments are welcome, if you have a specific area you'd like > mapped (such as your home) I'm accepting requests (no promises), zoomed > maps are available if you provide the address or gps coordinates. > > -- > Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified > http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix GPG public key 0x01938203 > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > Mmmm my very own map... i feel so special. :) Not bad for a crap PCI card, behind 6 inches of plaster, lath, and espestos based siding. I'm working on setting up my double-quad antenna, and pringles can on the roof, now that i've finally gotten some N-type connectors. (There has to be someplace local to get those) -- Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 "Watch out for that bus!" From jerryg at webguydesign.com Tue May 21 15:37:17 2002 From: jerryg at webguydesign.com (Jerry) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Would like to borrow indoor omni antenna In-Reply-To: <20020521100412.E16339@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <002d01c20102$9a36f310$e63fde42@jgg> Hi I've got an Orinoco Silver PC Card, has anyone used this antenna with that card? Where did you get it? How much? Thanks, Jerry http://www.maxrad.com/maxrad_products/broadband/2-6ghz/pdf/mig_tape_moun t_omni_series.pdf From andyw at pobox.com Tue May 21 16:18:55 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Would like to borrow indoor omni antenna In-Reply-To: <002d01c20102$9a36f310$e63fde42@jgg>; from jerryg@webguydesign.com on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 03:03:39PM -0500 References: <20020521100412.E16339@florence.linkmargin.com> <002d01c20102$9a36f310$e63fde42@jgg> Message-ID: <20020521161237.A18847@florence.linkmargin.com> Jerry wrote: > Hi > > I've got an Orinoco Silver PC Card, has anyone used this antenna with > that card? Where did you get it? How much? Here's two possible sources: http://www.fab-corp.com/I1.htm (2.4 GHz ISM Omnidirectional Blade Antenna w/ MC) http://secure2.hostmaster2000.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ecomm&Product_Code=MIG24PTMC&Category_Code=Portable The second site belongs to Electro-Comm, a pretty decent outfit in Colorado that I've bought a bunch of stuff from, but their site seems goofed up right now, and they can't find pricing on the antenna. My bet is that they fit the Lucent connector themselves. I'd expect it to be in the region of $35. I can vouch for the tape antennas, but I've not bought one ready-made with the Lucent connector. I do have a lucent connector, for LMR-100/RG-174 if you find the antenna, but can't find the right connector. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From cncole at earthlink.net Tue May 21 20:25:02 2002 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] New maps In-Reply-To: <001201c20102$95f4b580$7cc17618@jennifer> Message-ID: <002f01c20121$9b7e2800$6c01a8c0@HPZT> > i've finally gotten some N-type connectors. (There has to be > someplace local > to get those) Axman usually has bunches of good surplus ones and many types of coax adapters as well. --- Chuck Cole In pioneer days they used oxen for heavy pulling, and when one ox couldn't budge a log, they didn't try to grow a larger ox. We shouldn't be trying for bigger computers, but for more systems of computers. - G. Hopper From bryan at edgar.sector14.net Tue May 21 22:38:01 2002 From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] New maps In-Reply-To: <002f01c20121$9b7e2800$6c01a8c0@HPZT> from "Chuck Cole" at May 21, 2002 06:45:34 PM Message-ID: <200205220234.g4M2YOO04783@twenty.sector14.net> Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > i've finally gotten some N-type connectors. (There has to be > > someplace local > > to get those) > > Axman usually has bunches of good surplus ones and many types of coax > adapters as well. Radio City carries several different sizes of LMR coax and has the connectors for it as well. Acme Electronics at 3rd and Washington would probably be another good place to try but it's been quite a while since I've been in there. If you're getting N connectors for LMR-400 or 9913 make sure you tell them what kind of cable you're using. The center conductor of these cables is larger than most other cables and won't fit into the center pins that come with many N connectors. -- Bryan Halvorson bryan@edgar.sector14.net From goober at schulte.org Wed May 22 01:58:23 2002 From: goober at schulte.org (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] New maps References: <200205220234.g4M2YOO04783@twenty.sector14.net> Message-ID: <001601c2015b$87146e30$7cc17618@jennifer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Halvorson" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [TCWUG] New maps > Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > > > > i've finally gotten some N-type connectors. (There has to be > > > someplace local > > > to get those) > > > > Axman usually has bunches of good surplus ones and many types of coax > > adapters as well. > > Radio City carries several different sizes of LMR coax and has the > connectors for it as well. Acme Electronics at 3rd and Washington would > probably be another good place to try but it's been quite a while since > I've been in there. > > If you're getting N connectors for LMR-400 or 9913 make sure you tell > them what kind of cable you're using. The center conductor of these > cables is larger than most other cables and won't fit into the center > pins that come with many N connectors. > > > > -- > Bryan Halvorson > bryan@edgar.sector14.net > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > Yeah, the ones i got are for RG8/U... thick, but not quite LMR400 cable... not bad, cheap... and with no credit/debit card, have to go local, or find friends who are nice enough to order stuff. :) -- Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 "Watch out for that bus!" From cncole at earthlink.net Wed May 22 03:42:47 2002 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] New maps In-Reply-To: <200205220234.g4M2YOO04783@twenty.sector14.net> Message-ID: <003901c2016a$48c66d40$6c01a8c0@HPZT> Prices for coax connectors can be very high unless they are surplus. Axman has mostly overstock type of new and unused surplus... some used also. There's another place near Acme but off Washington (7th?) that has surplus connectors also. Can't remember the name. The point about wire size and coax type are an important ones! > -----Original Message----- > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On > Behalf Of Bryan Halvorson > > Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > > > > i've finally gotten some N-type connectors. (There has to be > > > someplace local > > > to get those) > > > > Axman usually has bunches of good surplus ones and many > types of coax > > adapters as well. > > Radio City carries several different sizes of LMR coax and has the > connectors for it as well. Acme Electronics at 3rd and > Washington would > probably be another good place to try but it's been quite a > while since > I've been in there. > > If you're getting N connectors for LMR-400 or 9913 make sure you tell > them what kind of cable you're using. The center conductor of these > cables is larger than most other cables and won't fit into the center > pins that come with many N connectors. > From poptix at techmonkeys.org Wed May 22 04:01:38 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] New maps In-Reply-To: <20020521144408.B18603@florence.linkmargin.com>; from andyw@pobox.com on Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:44:08PM -0500 References: <20020521111217.B27927@techmonkeys.org> <20020521144408.B18603@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020522035352.C27927@techmonkeys.org> On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:44:08PM -0500, Andy Warner wrote: > Matthew S. Hallacy wrote: > > Questions and comments are welcome, if you have a specific area you'd like > > mapped (such as your home) I'm accepting requests (no promises), zoomed > > maps are available if you provide the address or gps coordinates. > > Can you share the bouncing ball that you follow to create > these from lat/long/signal/noise data ? > > If my memory isn't failing me, I think you mentioned downloaded > maps, overlayed with the data. I've got a raft of data > that I'd like to plot, if you can teach us(me) to fish. > -- > andyw@pobox.com > > Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 [Responding to both emails] My setup: Vehicular: 1988 Chevrolet Silverado 4wd Approx 6' thick aluminum pole some J hooks, metal plates, nuts many gallons of 87 octane unleaded fuel (http://www.poptix.net/gallery/802-11/wardrive_mobile) Wireless: (1) 8dBi Omnidirectional Antenna (16" long) (www.fab-corp.com) (1) 15' Chunk of LMR-400 (www.fab-corp.com) (1) D-Link DWL-650 Prism2 based wireless card, with a self-soldered pigtail (SMA) (Best buy, $49.95 after $10 mail-in rebate) Computer: IBM ThinkPad 755CD (486 DX4-100, 24 megs of mixed parity/non-parity ram) (* Note * If anyone has something a little faster, capable of running X, with working PCMCIA slots, and perhaps a battery that lasts longer than 20 minutes I would greatly appreciate a trade/loan/good price, this thing is on its last leg, and isn't capable of capturing packets as fast as they come into the PCMCIA adapter =/ ) Software: linux-wlan-ng drivers v0.1.13 (www.linux-wlan.com) kismet (www.kismetwireless.net) prismstumbler (prismstumbler.sourceforge.net) I've written some perl scripts to automate the annoying tasks, as well as something to parse the output from prismstumbler (it also beeps, so I can watch the road while driving). After collecting data you can use the gpsmap program (included with kismet) to graph the data you collected, options can be tweaked to give a nicer looking map. -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix GPG public key 0x01938203 From michael at mimbach.com Fri May 24 08:41:40 2002 From: michael at mimbach.com (Michael J. Mimbach II) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] mapping 802.11b points References: <20020410210359.C23525@n0jcf.net> <20020410211343.E23525@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <000e01c20326$1f510840$7c0b800a@mlaptop2k> Hello, We are looking for people who have netstumbler files with gps coords that are willing to send them to us. We have a partial working online mapping system free for all to use. We need more data though. http://mapping.mimbach.com . We are adding more features constantly please let us know any ideas you may have. Michael J. Mimbach II KC0JRE Senior RF/Network Engineer michael@mimbach.com From poptix at techmonkeys.org Fri May 24 21:16:15 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] mapping 802.11b points In-Reply-To: <000e01c20326$1f510840$7c0b800a@mlaptop2k>; from michael@mimbach.com on Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:22:56AM -0500 References: <20020410210359.C23525@n0jcf.net> <20020410211343.E23525@n0jcf.net> <000e01c20326$1f510840$7c0b800a@mlaptop2k> Message-ID: <20020524211429.K27927@techmonkeys.org> On Fri, May 24, 2002 at 08:22:56AM -0500, Michael J. Mimbach II wrote: > Hello, > We are looking for people who have netstumbler files with gps coords that > are willing to send them to us. We have a partial working online mapping > system free for all to use. We need more data though. > http://mapping.mimbach.com . We are adding more features constantly please > let us know any ideas you may have. > Everyone please be careful who you're sharing your data with, there are some less than honest people out there who would use it for devious things. There are also the people who would use the data to approach the owners of these access points as 'consultants' to sell them some service because 'hackers' such as you and I have merely stumbled across their RF output. Besides, there are *much* better mapping solutions than this (as can be seen from my graphs). Perhaps I'll put up a web interface for users to generate their own graphs from. > Michael J. Mimbach II > KC0JRE > Senior RF/Network Engineer > michael@mimbach.com > *cough bullshit cough* -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix GPG public key 0x01938203 From goober at schulte.org Sat May 25 17:36:07 2002 From: goober at schulte.org (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Fun with antennas Message-ID: <001101c2043a$a9170e70$7cc17618@jennifer> Okay, i got my 24dbi grid dish antenna last night, just need to assemble a cabling system to go from my reverse SMA (netblaster 2 pci) card, to N-Type. Anyone have any adapters like this they're willing to part with, semi-cheaply? Also, is there any lurkers on here in the east st paul area i can do p2p testing with with this big boy? AND... FYI, there's a bunch of compaq W100 100mW pc cards on ebay right now for $50 "buy it now" option. Search for "Compaq wireless". Think i'm gonna place an order for one, see how they turn out. -- Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 "public, nitrous, jumphi. Fun..." From goober at schulte.org Sun May 26 18:23:18 2002 From: goober at schulte.org (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:58 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wardriving and legalese of it all (Long post, great debate) Message-ID: <000f01c2050a$b53c6080$7cc17618@jennifer> I've been asked quite a bit lately the legal grounds for wardriving. Correct me in ANY of this if i am misunderstood/misinterpreting the laws and regulations. According to FCC rule part 15 for class B devices, it states: "This device may NOT cause any harmful interference AND (!!) this device *MUST* accept any interference it recieves, including interference that may cause undesired operation." Now, if i read part 15 for class B devices correctly, that means, driving by a place with my laptop on and in a scanning mode, (passive of course, no transmission on my part causing an otherwise "harmful" rf signal) and i pick up your WAP or high powered point-to-point net connection, and you're transmitting data over it, unencrypted or otherwise, my device MUST accept that interference. This is what i construde to be legal. Completely by the books. This is where the questions begin. What defines harmful interference? The FCC defines it as this: "(m) Harmful interference. Any emission, radiation or induction that endangers the functioning of a radio navigation service or of other safety services or seriously degrades, obstructs or repeatedly interrupts a radio communications service operating in accordance with this Chapter." Okay. In humanspeak to me, that reads, that my device cannot cause interference with GPS, police/rescue/fire, to the point of anything. Even slight degredation in signal is violation of this part. Do i read that correctly? Has no part in anything pertaining to the general public. There's alot of grey area involved in this. Not really much in line with the general public, but more ment for the companies that manufacture and install the hardware near government radios. Onto the matter of which this post is about. Wardriving. Hypothetical situation. I drive by in my car, with my laptop on, and running a scan program such as kismet. You, sitting in your house, using your laptop to check your email via the wireless network you own and control, and my laptop just happens to pick up the interference (although not intended for me) of your password, and the email from aunt flo. Do i see that as illegal? No. What i do with the data might be interpreted as illegal, but me driving by, picking up the signal, i do not consider illegal, as my gear is operating within it's designed spec. It is up you to secure your data using the provided means from the manufacturer (wep) or some other means. In that situation you did not have wep configured and turned on. Thus meaning your data is flying, clear text through the air. Now, the other side of this. Say you did have wep turned on, and i still managed to get a password or some data. (keep in mind i'm not transmitting ANYTHING. I'm simply allowing my hardware to show me the interference it's receiving.) I would say that if i sat there, and had enough data to crack your wep key, i would consider that a break-in attempt, hence illegal. It took effort on my part to sit in front of your house, gather data from your network, and run some kind of cracking system upon the data i've gathered. Now, if i'm standing across the street, at a dairy queen, aiming a dish at your house for the intent of gathering your data. This is illegal. I'm purpously trying to be malicious and gain access to your network. (not to mention blatently obvious) From wirelessguyinstpaul at attbi.com Tue May 28 08:17:44 2002 From: wirelessguyinstpaul at attbi.com (P. Sheehy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:59 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wardriving and legalese of it all (Long post, great debate) References: <000f01c2050a$b53c6080$7cc17618@jennifer> Message-ID: <3CF37FAE.D3ADBA7@attbi.com> Interesting discussion. Part 15 has been around for a long time. A couple of quick comments. 1. The FCC has an awful lot on its hands and probably doesn't have very much time to care about any of this. The rapid deterioration of Citizens Band from an orderly and polite licensed radio service to utter chaos went on with fairly a whimper from the FCC. 2. All of us can get our own copy of FCC regulations, including Part 15, and maintain them with the latest updates until the cows come home. We can offer our interpretation of what's legal and what's illegal. None of it matters until an action is brought before the FCC or a court of law. I doubt there is any meaningful caselaw available on this. Unless one can cite cases, there is never any way of knowing for sure what is "legal" and what is not. 3. The larger question for us right now is whether "waroading" is ethical. I think Alex makes some interesting arguments on this question. 4. The larger question for me is how does someone operating a "hot spot" protect him or herself from inappropriate use by a "guest." P. Sheehy Alex Hartman wrote: > I've been asked quite a bit lately the legal grounds for wardriving. Correct > me in ANY of this if i am misunderstood/misinterpreting the laws and > regulations. > > According to FCC rule part 15 for class B devices, it states: > > "This device may NOT cause any harmful interference AND (!!) this device > *MUST* accept any interference it recieves, including interference that may > cause undesired operation." > > Now, if i read part 15 for class B devices correctly, that means, driving by > a place with my laptop on and in a scanning mode, (passive of course, no > transmission on my part causing an otherwise "harmful" rf signal) and i pick > up your WAP or high powered point-to-point net connection, and you're > transmitting data over it, unencrypted or otherwise, my device MUST accept > that interference. This is what i construde to be legal. Completely by the > books. This is where the questions begin. > > What defines harmful interference? The FCC defines it as this: > > "(m) Harmful interference. Any emission, radiation or induction that > endangers the functioning of a radio navigation service or of other safety > services or seriously degrades, obstructs or repeatedly interrupts a radio > communications service operating in accordance with this Chapter." > > Okay. In humanspeak to me, that reads, that my device cannot cause > interference with GPS, police/rescue/fire, to the point of anything. Even > slight degredation in signal is violation of this part. Do i read that > correctly? Has no part in anything pertaining to the general public. > There's alot of grey area involved in this. Not really much in line with the > general public, but more ment for the companies that manufacture and install > the hardware near government radios. > > Onto the matter of which this post is about. Wardriving. Hypothetical > situation. I drive by in my car, with my laptop on, and running a scan > program such as kismet. You, sitting in your house, using your laptop to > check your email via the wireless network you own and control, and my laptop > just happens to pick up the interference (although not intended for me) of > your password, and the email from aunt flo. Do i see that as illegal? No. > What i do with the data might be interpreted as illegal, but me driving by, > picking up the signal, i do not consider illegal, as my gear is operating > within it's designed spec. It is up you to secure your data using the > provided means from the manufacturer (wep) or some other means. In that > situation you did not have wep configured and turned on. Thus meaning your > data is flying, clear text through the air. Now, the other side of this. Say > you did have wep turned on, and i still managed to get a password or some > data. (keep in mind i'm not transmitting ANYTHING. I'm simply allowing my > hardware to show me the interference it's receiving.) > > I would say that if i sat there, and had enough data to crack your wep key, > i would consider that a break-in attempt, hence illegal. It took effort on > my part to sit in front of your house, gather data from your network, and > run some kind of cracking system upon the data i've gathered. Now, if i'm > standing across the street, at a dairy queen, aiming a dish at your house > for the intent of gathering your data. This is illegal. I'm purpously trying > to be malicious and gain access to your network. (not to mention blatently > obvious) > > >From what has been said in a few law reports, it is the burden of the > network owner and controller to secure his data in any means seen fit by > himself. This means WEP, VPN, PPtP, etc etc. If you neglect to do this, your > data is floating about in the airwaves free as a radio station, since > 802.11b does use the ISM band, set asside for the public's use, without > license. This raises another question. Cordless phones use ISM as well. > (2.4ghz, 900Mhz) It is illegal to intercept and recieve any of those > transmissions. The wiretap laws cover those. Some states do have > "computer-to-computer" transmissions in their wiretap laws (such as New > Jersey), but it does not state anything about allowing your computer to show > you interference it's recieving from another computer. > > Now, the question of the software. I'm sure many are familiar with kismet > and netstumbler, and airsnort. Kismet does collect the data that it picks up > in 802.11b packets floating about the air. Does that land in with the "it's > in the public, it *IS* public" laws? I think so. Anyone? Now, intentionally > sitting in front of someone's house using this to gather passwords, read > email, or even attempt a wep key crack, i would find to be illegal. Since > you're using the data you are gathering for malicious intent. (As stated > above) > > This is on the wardriving.com website, in the FAQ. Feel free to read it all, > but this was the only part that was valid to this post. > http://www.wardriving.com/doc/Wardriving-HOWTO.txt > > 3. Why are people Wardriving? > > 3.1 Is it legal? > > There is no cut and dry answer to this question, but simply driving around a > city searching for the existence of wireless networks, with no ulterior > motive cannot be deemed illegal. However, if you are searching for a place > to > steal internet access, or commit computer crimes then the wardriving you > performed was done in a malicious manner and could be treated as such in > court. Don't forget in the US, simply receiving radio transmissions on the > Cellular telephone frequencies (895-925 MHZ) is illegal, a similar law could > be written to discourage this, but this isn't likely. > As with any questionable activity, there are always two sides. Whether you > agree or disagree with the whole practice makes no difference to me, but in > the future, legal proceedings and violations may be related to wardriving. > Technology is not bound to ethics. It is the application and use (or abuse) > of that technology that brings ethics into it. To get back to the question > this technology is not really new (802.11 IEEE Standard - 1997), but this is > the peak of it's popularity. And at this peak it's good to get the kinks > worked out, and the security of wireless Ethernet is a pretty huge kink. > WEP(Wired Equivalent Privacy) uses up to 128-bit RC4 encryption, but it was > implemented wrong, so now it makes no difference whether or not you use it, > it's vulnerable. There are few built-in mechanisms that provide security, > not > broadcasting the ESSID is a start, but a sniffer can pick it up, anything > else is left to other 3rd-party devices. > > "3rd-party devices" Meaning that it's up to you to secure your data. If you > cannot secure your data, oh well, figure it out. :) > > Personally, i think there needs to be more definition in the laws and > regulations reguarding this. WEP could be useful, and there is a new driver > based WEP256 floating about, but at the physical layer, it's still only RC4, > 128-bit wep. > > So, the short & sweet answer to "is wardriving illegal?": No. > The long answer is whatever you want it to be, with as many definitions and > explanations as you see fit. I don't see wardriving illegal, but i do see > association to another's access point without expressed permission, illegal. > > Just some observations, and my opinions, which are mine alone, with a bit of > mixed fact. I would like to hear your ideas and observations on this topic. > Perhaps it could be a subject for the meeting in a few weeks here. > > -- > Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net > PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 > "Watch out for that bus!" > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From graves_j at ins.com Wed May 29 10:43:11 2002 From: graves_j at ins.com (Jim Graves) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:59 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wardriving and legalese of it all (Long post, great debate) In-Reply-To: <000f01c2050a$b53c6080$7cc17618@jennifer> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020529090606.03219ac0@pop7.ins.com> I think you're trying to reverse-engineer FCC rules a bit too much. When it comes to wireless scanning, I think the Electronic Communications Privacy Act (ECPA) has much more relevance. That's the law that provides Federal penalties to anyone who "intentionally intercepts, endeavors to intercept, or procures any other person to intercept or endeavor to intercept, any wire, oral, or electronic communication." In other words, the ECPA is the anti-eavesdropping law. I don't know if this has been tested with wardriving, and I'm no lawyer. I also think there's a big logical difference between scanning for networks and capturing packets -- but I don't know if the law sees a difference. In any event, if it ever came to trial, I doubt an argument about FCC part 15 would hold water. There's a big difference between "accepting" interference and decoding transmissions. At 06:11 PM 5/26/2002 -0500, Alex Hartman wrote: >I've been asked quite a bit lately the legal grounds for wardriving. Correct >me in ANY of this if i am misunderstood/misinterpreting the laws and >regulations. > >According to FCC rule part 15 for class B devices, it states: > >"This device may NOT cause any harmful interference AND (!!) this device >*MUST* accept any interference it recieves, including interference that may >cause undesired operation." > >Now, if i read part 15 for class B devices correctly, that means, driving by >a place with my laptop on and in a scanning mode, (passive of course, no >transmission on my part causing an otherwise "harmful" rf signal) and i pick >up your WAP or high powered point-to-point net connection, and you're >transmitting data over it, unencrypted or otherwise, my device MUST accept >that interference. This is what i construde to be legal. Completely by the >books. This is where the questions begin. > >What defines harmful interference? The FCC defines it as this: > >"(m) Harmful interference. Any emission, radiation or induction that >endangers the functioning of a radio navigation service or of other safety >services or seriously degrades, obstructs or repeatedly interrupts a radio >communications service operating in accordance with this Chapter." > >Okay. In humanspeak to me, that reads, that my device cannot cause >interference with GPS, police/rescue/fire, to the point of anything. Even >slight degredation in signal is violation of this part. Do i read that >correctly? Has no part in anything pertaining to the general public. >There's alot of grey area involved in this. Not really much in line with the >general public, but more ment for the companies that manufacture and install >the hardware near government radios. > >Onto the matter of which this post is about. Wardriving. Hypothetical >situation. I drive by in my car, with my laptop on, and running a scan >program such as kismet. You, sitting in your house, using your laptop to >check your email via the wireless network you own and control, and my laptop >just happens to pick up the interference (although not intended for me) of >your password, and the email from aunt flo. Do i see that as illegal? No. >What i do with the data might be interpreted as illegal, but me driving by, >picking up the signal, i do not consider illegal, as my gear is operating >within it's designed spec. It is up you to secure your data using the >provided means from the manufacturer (wep) or some other means. In that >situation you did not have wep configured and turned on. Thus meaning your >data is flying, clear text through the air. Now, the other side of this. Say >you did have wep turned on, and i still managed to get a password or some >data. (keep in mind i'm not transmitting ANYTHING. I'm simply allowing my >hardware to show me the interference it's receiving.) > >I would say that if i sat there, and had enough data to crack your wep key, >i would consider that a break-in attempt, hence illegal. It took effort on >my part to sit in front of your house, gather data from your network, and >run some kind of cracking system upon the data i've gathered. Now, if i'm >standing across the street, at a dairy queen, aiming a dish at your house >for the intent of gathering your data. This is illegal. I'm purpously trying >to be malicious and gain access to your network. (not to mention blatently >obvious) > > From what has been said in a few law reports, it is the burden of the >network owner and controller to secure his data in any means seen fit by >himself. This means WEP, VPN, PPtP, etc etc. If you neglect to do this, your >data is floating about in the airwaves free as a radio station, since >802.11b does use the ISM band, set asside for the public's use, without >license. This raises another question. Cordless phones use ISM as well. >(2.4ghz, 900Mhz) It is illegal to intercept and recieve any of those >transmissions. The wiretap laws cover those. Some states do have >"computer-to-computer" transmissions in their wiretap laws (such as New >Jersey), but it does not state anything about allowing your computer to show >you interference it's recieving from another computer. > >Now, the question of the software. I'm sure many are familiar with kismet >and netstumbler, and airsnort. Kismet does collect the data that it picks up >in 802.11b packets floating about the air. Does that land in with the "it's >in the public, it *IS* public" laws? I think so. Anyone? Now, intentionally >sitting in front of someone's house using this to gather passwords, read >email, or even attempt a wep key crack, i would find to be illegal. Since >you're using the data you are gathering for malicious intent. (As stated >above) > > >This is on the wardriving.com website, in the FAQ. Feel free to read it all, >but this was the only part that was valid to this post. >http://www.wardriving.com/doc/Wardriving-HOWTO.txt > >3. Why are people Wardriving? > >3.1 Is it legal? > >There is no cut and dry answer to this question, but simply driving around a >city searching for the existence of wireless networks, with no ulterior >motive cannot be deemed illegal. However, if you are searching for a place >to >steal internet access, or commit computer crimes then the wardriving you >performed was done in a malicious manner and could be treated as such in >court. Don't forget in the US, simply receiving radio transmissions on the >Cellular telephone frequencies (895-925 MHZ) is illegal, a similar law could >be written to discourage this, but this isn't likely. >As with any questionable activity, there are always two sides. Whether you >agree or disagree with the whole practice makes no difference to me, but in >the future, legal proceedings and violations may be related to wardriving. >Technology is not bound to ethics. It is the application and use (or abuse) >of that technology that brings ethics into it. To get back to the question >this technology is not really new (802.11 IEEE Standard - 1997), but this is >the peak of it's popularity. And at this peak it's good to get the kinks >worked out, and the security of wireless Ethernet is a pretty huge kink. >WEP(Wired Equivalent Privacy) uses up to 128-bit RC4 encryption, but it was >implemented wrong, so now it makes no difference whether or not you use it, >it's vulnerable. There are few built-in mechanisms that provide security, >not >broadcasting the ESSID is a start, but a sniffer can pick it up, anything >else is left to other 3rd-party devices. > > >"3rd-party devices" Meaning that it's up to you to secure your data. If you >cannot secure your data, oh well, figure it out. :) > >Personally, i think there needs to be more definition in the laws and >regulations reguarding this. WEP could be useful, and there is a new driver >based WEP256 floating about, but at the physical layer, it's still only RC4, >128-bit wep. > >So, the short & sweet answer to "is wardriving illegal?": No. >The long answer is whatever you want it to be, with as many definitions and >explanations as you see fit. I don't see wardriving illegal, but i do see >association to another's access point without expressed permission, illegal. > > >Just some observations, and my opinions, which are mine alone, with a bit of >mixed fact. I would like to hear your ideas and observations on this topic. >Perhaps it could be a subject for the meeting in a few weeks here. > > >-- >Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net >PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 >"Watch out for that bus!" > > > >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, >Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list ---- Jim Graves Alphabet Soup: CCIE #7524, CISSP, CWNA, MCSE, BFD Senior Network Systems Consultant Lucent Worldwide Services Alpha Pager: 1-800-467-1467 From goober at goobe.net Thu May 30 12:07:42 2002 From: goober at goobe.net (Alex Hartman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:59 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wardriving and legalese of it all (Long post, great debate) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020529090606.03219ac0@pop7.ins.com> Message-ID: <00b101c2079f$1c532240$7cc17618@jennifer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Graves" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Wardriving and legalese of it all (Long post, great debate) > I think you're trying to reverse-engineer FCC rules a bit too much. > > When it comes to wireless scanning, I think the Electronic Communications > Privacy Act (ECPA) has much more relevance. That's the law that provides > Federal penalties to anyone who "intentionally intercepts, endeavors to > intercept, or procures any other person to intercept or endeavor to > intercept, any wire, oral, or electronic communication." In other words, > the ECPA is the anti-eavesdropping law. > > I don't know if this has been tested with wardriving, and I'm no lawyer. I > also think there's a big logical difference between scanning for networks > and capturing packets -- but I don't know if the law sees a difference. > > In any event, if it ever came to trial, I doubt an argument about FCC part > 15 would hold water. There's a big difference between "accepting" > interference and decoding transmissions. > Good call. I had forgotten about that law. The big thing really is, who's going to really know what a wardriver is doing? I just say it's amatuer weather, and people believe me. ;) The capture of the packets is a big deal, yes, but if that functionality was to be disabled, or shut off, and kismet or netstumbler was then just used to "scan" frequencies, i wouldn't see much of a big deal. I think that part 15 would hold a lil water, but it'd leak, horribly. All because of the allowance to accept interference. I'm just letting the computer show me the "interference" that it is receiveing. (How else you going to debug why your linksys on channel 6 isn't working cause the neighbor down the street has the same thing? ;) ) Thanks for the input. -- Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8 "Watch out for that bus!" From sulrich at botwerks.org Fri May 31 09:35:19 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:59 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] monthly meeting reminder - cfp Message-ID: <20020531084422.A17146@botwerks.org> all- just a reminder that we're coming up on our 2nd monthly meeting on tuesday june 4th, 2002 @ 6:30PM CDT. the location, the cisco bloomington office. i'll be getting a more formal reminder/announcement out to the usual channels today. i've been remiss with the announcement and i would like to apologize. activity on the mailing list has been rather quiety lately. i'm guessing that folks are taking advantage of the nice weather that we've been able to enjoy as of late. some of the more hotly discussed topics have cooled down as of late. i'd like to propose the following loose agenda for those of us able to attend. i would love some feedback and any folks interested in presenting something at the meeting are more than welcome. - introductions (which may or may not be in order) - discussion of our special interested group objectives - hot spots - infrastructure buildout - group discount information - i've taken the liberty of signing our group up with oreilly and associates to receive discounts and some other cool stuff. details available at the meeting. - i've also queried a few different radio equipment vendors regarding group discount / quantity purchase options. research results available at the meeting. - online collaboration tools - brief review of the web storage and collaboration packages out there - FAQ maintenance - creation of a hardware faq? - linking appropriately to the resources available? - show and tell - i believe that joel helgeson was willing to do his security presentation - joel, does this offer still hold? - i can share my nocatauth configuration / public access point configuration (unix / networking configuration only - nothing interesting from a radio perspective) -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From clay at fandre.com Fri May 31 09:58:20 2002 From: clay at fandre.com (Clay Fandre) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:59 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Speaker for next TCLUG meeting In-Reply-To: <20020520173506.GB20749@fandre.com> References: <20020520173506.GB20749@fandre.com> Message-ID: <20020531145331.GT22476@fandre.com> Still looking for a speaker for the TCLUG meeting on the 8th. You don't have to talk, just come and show off some cool antennas, GPS and anything else. Nate, how about you? I know you have some cool stuff? Think you could set your alarm? -- Clay On Mon, 20 May 2002, Clay Fandre wrote: > Anyone interested in giving a talk at the next TCLUG meeting? (June > 8th) I'd like to have the topic "Wireless with Linux" or something. > Maybe bring in an AP and configure a 802.11 card in Linux. Anyone > using a GPS with Linux? > > -- Clay From chrome at real-time.com Fri May 31 11:29:07 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:59 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] monthly meeting reminder - cfp In-Reply-To: <20020531084422.A17146@botwerks.org>; from sulrich@botwerks.org on Fri, May 31, 2002 at 08:44:22AM -0500 References: <20020531084422.A17146@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020531112908.A28017@real-time.com> On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 08:44:22AM -0500, steve ulrich wrote: > - i can share my nocatauth configuration / public access point > configuration (unix / networking configuration only - nothing > interesting from a radio perspective) I'm interested in that. as a side note, what OSes does NoCatAuth run on? their website is profoundly non-helpful. I'd be interested in running it on OpenBSD. Carl Soderstrom. -- Network Engineer Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From sulrich at botwerks.org Fri May 31 13:57:21 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:59 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] mailing list subscription... Message-ID: <20020531185200.GB45161@botwerks.org> as an aside - the list subscription process appears to require administrative approval. this is required even for the announcement list. my concern here is that there are some organizations that want to make sure that we have an open and interactive user group that is really flourishing. in turn they will give us good discounts on things and help us to interface with other user groups that may be doing the same thing. would it be possible to open up the mailing list to allow anyone to subscribe (using the appropriate verification mechanisms that mailman provides) without requiring administrative interaction? this gives the impression that the group is more closed than it really is. obviously if there are instances of spammers or abuse of the list these offenders should be handled appropriately but it would be nice to easily facilitate the insertion of new members without additional overhead. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From tanner at real-time.com Fri May 31 15:23:02 2002 From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:59 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] mailing list subscription... In-Reply-To: <20020531185200.GB45161@botwerks.org>; from sulrich@botwerks.org on Fri, May 31, 2002 at 01:52:00PM -0500 References: <20020531185200.GB45161@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020531150421.H16782@real-time.com> Quoting steve ulrich (sulrich@botwerks.org): > obviously if there are instances of spammers or abuse of the list > these offenders should be handled appropriately but it would be nice > to easily facilitate the insertion of new members without additional > overhead. spambots are smart and we have had problem on the tclug-list, first it was denying subscriptions from hotmail.com, then yahoo.com, then it went to total administrative approval. I'd be happy to open up subscribing, my inbox is protected by RBL, RSS, and spamassassin, but most aren't. -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.mn-linux.org, Minnesota, Linux | Fax : (952)943-8500 http://www.tcwug.org, Minnesota, Wireless | Coding isn't a crime. Key fingerprint = 6C E9 51 4F D5 3E 4C 66 62 A9 10 E5 35 85 39 D9 From lamer at gentoo.org Fri May 31 16:55:07 2002 From: lamer at gentoo.org (Ben Lutgens) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:59 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] mailing list subscription... In-Reply-To: <20020531185200.GB45161@botwerks.org> References: <20020531185200.GB45161@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20020531211143.GH4575@rtfm.sistina.com> On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 01:52:00PM -0500, steve ulrich wrote: > >my concern here is that there are some organizations that want to make >sure that we have an open and interactive user group that is really >flourishing. in turn they will give us good discounts on things and >help us to interface with other user groups that may be doing the same >thing. Discounts! What? I've never ever seen any evidence of this on any list I've been on. Who cares what "Organizations" think. The list is for users of the technology to discuss things, not proliferate thier damnable spam. There's nothing non-open about the list, the archives are publicly visible, and anyone can subscribe. It's just a check to make sure those corporations who support spam as a viable advertising medium can't load our mailboxen with useless unsolicited email. -- Ben Lutgens | http://people.sistina.com/~blutgens/ System Administrator | http://www.sistina.com/ Sistina Software Inc. | "I got a wife and kids too but you don't see me out here stealing Imperial Droids now do ya?" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020531/613799d0/attachment.pgp From natecars at real-time.com Fri May 31 17:12:05 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:59 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] mailing list subscription... In-Reply-To: <20020531211143.GH4575@rtfm.sistina.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 May 2002, Ben Lutgens wrote: > Discounts! What? I've never ever seen any evidence of this on any list > I've been on. Who cares what "Organizations" think. The list is for > users of the technology to discuss things, not proliferate thier > damnable spam. > > There's nothing non-open about the list, the archives are publicly > visible, and anyone can subscribe. It's just a check to make sure > those corporations who support spam as a viable advertising medium > can't load our mailboxen with useless unsolicited email. Not sending discounts to the list.. just getting discounts from list members. I see it all the time on BAWUG, etc.. I actually already talked to Poynter (antenna maker who apparently kind of sucks) and they would be willing to sell us antennas at the volume pricing without having to meet the volume numbers.. stuff like that. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From natecars at real-time.com Fri May 31 17:23:21 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:59 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] mailing list subscription... In-Reply-To: <20020531150421.H16782@real-time.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 May 2002, Bob Tanner wrote: > spambots are smart and we have had problem on the tclug-list, first it > was denying subscriptions from hotmail.com, then yahoo.com, then it > went to total administrative approval. > > I'd be happy to open up subscribing, my inbox is protected by RBL, > RSS, and spamassassin, but most aren't. I'd vote to just open it up, and delete spambots as they become problems.. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From natecars at real-time.com Fri May 31 17:23:34 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:59 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Speaker for next TCLUG meeting In-Reply-To: <20020531145331.GT22476@fandre.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 May 2002, Clay Fandre wrote: > Still looking for a speaker for the TCLUG meeting on the 8th. You > don't have to talk, just come and show off some cool antennas, GPS and > anything else. Nate, how about you? I know you have some cool stuff? > Think you could set your alarm? I've got a bachelor's party for a friend that day. :( Plus, I no longer have much cool stuff.. just a couple AP's and NIC's; I sold both the antennas and WAP11's config'd as bridges to a company who needed a link between two buildings in a hurry, and my budget hasn't allowed me to buy replacements yet. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From sulrich at botwerks.org Fri May 31 17:40:48 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:00 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] mailing list subscription... In-Reply-To: <20020531150421.H16782@real-time.com> References: <20020531185200.GB45161@botwerks.org> <20020531150421.H16782@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20020531172822.D17146@botwerks.org> this is a problem with any mailing list. i've been able to work through the closed list subscription process bit with the organization in question. in retrospect perhaps i should have just told them that the mailing list was open and left it at that. that aside - there are people who might want to just pop onto a list and pop off if they have a question and/or who would really like to join the list but are turned off by having to wait for an "approval". i'll agree that spammers can make life a PITA but i think that erring in the side of openess is the right thing to do while working to get momentum for a user group. when last we saw our hero (Friday, May 31, 2002), Bob Tanner was madly tapping out: > Quoting steve ulrich (sulrich@botwerks.org): > > obviously if there are instances of spammers or abuse of the list > > these offenders should be handled appropriately but it would be > > nice to easily facilitate the insertion of new members without > > additional overhead. > > spambots are smart and we have had problem on the tclug-list, first > it was denying subscriptions from hotmail.com, then yahoo.com, then > it went to total administrative approval. > > I'd be happy to open up subscribing, my inbox is protected by RBL, > RSS, and spamassassin, but most aren't. > -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From sulrich at botwerks.org Fri May 31 18:03:02 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:00 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] mailing list subscription... In-Reply-To: <20020531211143.GH4575@rtfm.sistina.com> References: <20020531185200.GB45161@botwerks.org> <20020531211143.GH4575@rtfm.sistina.com> Message-ID: <20020531173915.E17146@botwerks.org> i think you're missing the point here. there are company's that are willing to give significant discounts to user groups. i've been researching the options that are available to us for getting reduced pricing on gear, books and swag in general. these "organizations", as you refer to them, want to make sure that these groups are legitimate and that they really are open groups and not just little fiefdoms of people looking for a cheap rate. they're not looking to spam the mailing lists. out of curiosity - what metrics are applied to people who make subscription submissions? this is more of a rhetorical question than anything else. i'm not accusing bob, et al of anything i'm just saying that even with a manual process there's nothing to preclude the subscription of devious . i suggest we open it up and deal with problems on an a priori basis. in my experience the administration of such a model is far less than the administration of the current model and leads to a more open dialog. when last we saw our hero (Friday, May 31, 2002), Ben Lutgens was madly tapping out: > On Fri, May 31, 2002 at 01:52:00PM -0500, steve ulrich wrote: > > > >my concern here is that there are some organizations that want to > >make sure that we have an open and interactive user group that is > >really flourishing. in turn they will give us good discounts on > >things and help us to interface with other user groups that may be > >doing the same thing. > > Discounts! What? I've never ever seen any evidence of this on any > list I've been on. Who cares what "Organizations" think. The list is > for users of the technology to discuss things, not proliferate thier > damnable spam. > > There's nothing non-open about the list, the archives are publicly > visible, and anyone can subscribe. It's just a check to make sure > those corporations who support spam as a viable advertising medium > can't load our mailboxen with useless unsolicited email. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020531/fd52a954/attachment.pgp From clay at fandre.com Fri May 31 18:30:11 2002 From: clay at fandre.com (Clay Fandre) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:00 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Speaker for next TCLUG meeting In-Reply-To: <20020520173506.GB20749@fandre.com> References: <20020520173506.GB20749@fandre.com> Message-ID: <20020529165540.GK31064@fandre.com> I'm still looking for a volunteer. (or 2) Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? How about just someone brining in their Linux box with a cool looking antenna? You don't even have to talk. Just smile. Nate, I know you have cool stuff? Maybe you could set your alarm? On Mon, 20 May 2002, Clay Fandre wrote: > Anyone interested in giving a talk at the next TCLUG meeting? (June > 8th) I'd like to have the topic "Wireless with Linux" or something. > Maybe bring in an AP and configure a 802.11 card in Linux. Anyone > using a GPS with Linux? > > -- Clay > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From joel at helgeson.com Fri May 31 18:44:05 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:00 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Speaker for next TCLUG meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c208fb$42012520$2802a8c0@SECURITY> I'd be happy to deliver a presentation on security if you'd like. I'm thinking of a pared down version of the one I gave at the strictly business expo. The subject is securing your wireless network. Any interest? Joel -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of Nate Carlson Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 5:07 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Speaker for next TCLUG meeting On Fri, 31 May 2002, Clay Fandre wrote: > Still looking for a speaker for the TCLUG meeting on the 8th. You > don't have to talk, just come and show off some cool antennas, GPS and > anything else. Nate, how about you? I know you have some cool stuff? > Think you could set your alarm? I've got a bachelor's party for a friend that day. :( Plus, I no longer have much cool stuff.. just a couple AP's and NIC's; I sold both the antennas and WAP11's config'd as bridges to a company who needed a link between two buildings in a hurry, and my budget hasn't allowed me to buy replacements yet. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From dieman at ringworld.org Fri May 31 18:44:43 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:00 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] configuration file for debian/prism2 hostap Message-ID: <20020531234242.GA21257@ringworld.org> Thought I would post a fragment of my config just in case anyone might be looking for such information: ---/etc/network/interfaces auto eth0 iface eth0 inet static address 0.0.0.0 netmask 0.0.0.0 auto wlan0 iface wlan0 inet static address 0.0.0.0 netmask 0.0.0.0 # Make the host do wep, open mode only pre-up /usr/bin/prism2_param wlan0 host_encrypt 1 pre-up /usr/bin/prism2_param wlan0 host_decrypt 1 pre-up /usr/bin/prism2_param wlan0 ap_auth_algs 1 # Authorized mac list pre-up /sbin/iwpriv wlan0 maccmd 1 pre-up /sbin/iwpriv wlan0 addmac pre-up /sbin/iwconfig wlan0 essid pre-up /sbin/iwconfig wlan0 channel pre-up /sbin/iwconfig wlan0 enc auto br0 iface br0 inet dhcp pre-up /usr/sbin/brctl addbr br0 pre-up /usr/sbin/brctl addif br0 wlan0 pre-up /usr/sbin/brctl addif br0 eth0 pre-up /usr/sbin/brctl stp br0 off --- thats all. Just wanted to post in case anyone wanted a easy way to do this and needed some starting points. -- Scott Dier http://www.ringworld.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020531/a6f611d8/attachment.pgp From joel at helgeson.com Fri May 31 19:26:11 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:00 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Next meeting? Message-ID: <000001c2073d$cc6ed410$7e0b0a0a@SECURITY> Is our next meeting scheduled for the First Tuesday of the month? Meaning we'll be meeting at the Cisco offices again on Tuesday June 4th? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Regards, Joel R. Helgeson Director of Networking & Security Services SymetriQ Corporation, www.symetriq.com 8500 Normandale Lake Boulevard, Suite 1670 Bloomington, Minnesota 55437-3813 Office: (952) 921-8869 Cell: (651) 270-7521 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020531/95da267b/attachment.htm From poptix at techmonkeys.org Fri May 31 21:36:32 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:00 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wardriving and legalese of it all (Long post, great debate) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020529090606.03219ac0@pop7.ins.com>; from graves_j@ins.com on Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:13:08AM -0400 References: <000f01c2050a$b53c6080$7cc17618@jennifer> <4.3.2.7.2.20020529090606.03219ac0@pop7.ins.com> Message-ID: <20020529184549.B22632@techmonkeys.org> On Wed, May 29, 2002 at 09:13:08AM -0400, Jim Graves wrote: > I think you're trying to reverse-engineer FCC rules a bit too much. > > When it comes to wireless scanning, I think the Electronic Communications > Privacy Act (ECPA) has much more relevance. That's the law that provides > Federal penalties to anyone who "intentionally intercepts, endeavors to > intercept, or procures any other person to intercept or endeavor to > intercept, any wire, oral, or electronic communication." In other words, > the ECPA is the anti-eavesdropping law. > > I don't know if this has been tested with wardriving, and I'm no lawyer. I > also think there's a big logical difference between scanning for networks > and capturing packets -- but I don't know if the law sees a difference. > > In any event, if it ever came to trial, I doubt an argument about FCC part > 15 would hold water. There's a big difference between "accepting" > interference and decoding transmissions. > What about walking/driving around with an X-10 camera in your RV hooked up to the TV, or with one of those FRS radios.. or a CB radio.. when you've got pc's (on any OS) that automacially associate to the nearest access point regardless of SSID, acquire an IP, and sign onto AIM/ICQ/whatever along with checking their mail (all the things a typical box does upon detecting a network connection) it becomes very hard to distinguish between what's legal and what isn't. To add more to that mix, you've got people (like myself) who have no problem with people driving up and using my access point (I've got WEP disabled, and DHCP running, this is how I let people know they're welcome to use it) Personally, I'd say that anyone without even the most basic security or 'keep out' sign (anything that requires user intervention to access) is open to the public. > ---- > Jim Graves > Alphabet Soup: CCIE #7524, CISSP, CWNA, MCSE, BFD > Senior Network Systems Consultant > Lucent Worldwide Services > Alpha Pager: 1-800-467-1467 > -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix GPG public key 0x01938203