From andyw at pobox.com Fri Nov 1 01:23:46 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Access Point management In-Reply-To: <1034625550.14531.39.camel@3po.thodt.net>; from hick0088@tc.umn.edu on Mon, Oct 14, 2002 at 02:59:10PM -0500 References: <1034625550.14531.39.camel@3po.thodt.net> Message-ID: <20021014194756.E23334@florence.linkmargin.com> Mike Hicks wrote: > Has anyone come up with a good way of managing access points strewn all > across a building through their console ports? I suppose the easiest > thing to do is just carry a laptop or a PDA around and connect it to the > APs, but it would obviously be really nice to do centralized management. This is really where you start to tell the enterprise-level solutions from the soho solutions with aspirations. If you want centralised management, then shop around for APs with the feature set that allows you to do this over ethernet via snmp/telnet/ssh. The extra $$ you'll spend per AP will be paid back by not having to build this extra star network. Many manufacturers have custom applications that do all kinds of interesting goop, sometimes via snmp, sometimes via super-secret (or not-so-super-secret) proprietary back doors. > So, I guess you could do a dozen APs for the price of a decent laptop, > but considering the low speeds used with serial consoles and the > infrequent need to use them, are there any good tricks for doing this > cheaper? The question I'd pose would be to zoom out one or two clicks and re-analyze the problem you're trying to solve, and assess what APs are best suited to this problem. Tell us, is this a hypothetical problem, or are you currently stuck with a nest of RS232-admin-only APs that you need to make work ? If so, what brand ? - There are all kinds of widgets out there that have been written for assorted APs (e.g. freebase for Orinoco/Karlnet-like substances.) -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From bgilbertson at ieee.org Fri Nov 1 07:52:17 2002 From: bgilbertson at ieee.org (Bob Gilbertson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Duluth wireless References: <20021101000927.GA10791@techmonkeys.org> Message-ID: <3DC27C7F.3020100@ieee.org> Another interesting one is Monet. Difference is it operates at 1.8-1.9 Ghz PCS band instead of 2.4 Ghz. Waiting for the Fargo deployment to be activated :) - may have more info then. We discussed it at a PC Users Group I belong to in Fargo several months ago but deployment wasn't expected until Nov. 2002. Couple of links: http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/10/31/021031hncdma.xml?1031tham http://www.monetmobile.com/showcontent.asp?contentname=cons_coveragearea Regards, Bob Matthew S. Hallacy wrote: > On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 11:22:35AM -0600, Ben Nelson wrote: > >>Has anyone heard of these guys? Thoughts? > > > > Never *heard* of them, I did pick up their wireless network in the > duluith area though. > > http://www.poptix.net/duluth.png > > the area is very busy, 2.4ghz-wise. > > >>http://www.superiorbroadband.com/coverage_aread.htm >> >>Ben > > From poptix at techmonkeys.org Mon Nov 4 10:05:59 2002 From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:29 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] tracking antenna array Message-ID: <20021104133258.GF10791@techmonkeys.org> http://www.wired.com/news/wireless/0,1382,56166,00.html Sounds nifty =) -- Matthew S. Hallacy FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified http://www.poptix.net GPG public key 0x01938203 From spencer at autonomous.tv Wed Nov 6 02:22:32 2002 From: spencer at autonomous.tv (SpencerUnderground) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:32 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting for november and informal meeting this weekend In-Reply-To: <20021015065441.A28733@botwerks.org> References: <20021015065441.A28733@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <20021015173424.GC13777@tcopensys.com> On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 06:54:41AM -0500, steve ulrich wrote: > > >all- > >i've been able to come to terms with some scheduling snafus and would >like to outline the following suggested meeting times. > >for the month of november there are some hiccoughs for the meeting on >the first tuesday of the month. hence i'm suggesting that (and i've made >arrangements to support) the meeting be held on the second tuesday in >november (nov-12, 2002). > >to address some of the near term items i'm suggesting that we get >together this saturday afternoon at location close to downtown with >wireless access. i'm working out the details associated with getting >a room at one of the dunn bros. which also has wireless acces. more >on this as i get the details. That sounds great. As an alternative we could thinkk about the building we just had the installfest at. Of course we would have to talk with Scot Jenkins. This is just a thought off the top of my head. I am sure he would be receptive to the idea, we just need to propose it to him. There is also a book store/art gallery on Washington and (some street by the dome) that has a fairly large public area and wireless. I just fear dunn bros. will be very crowded. > > > > > > >-- >steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org >PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -- --*--SpencerUnderground--*-- http://autonomous.tv/ spencer@autonomous.tv Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2 68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20021106/c4f23008/attachment.pgp From joel at helgeson.com Wed Nov 6 10:24:19 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting for november and informal meeting this weekend In-Reply-To: <20021015173424.GC13777@tcopensys.com> Message-ID: <002401c2859b$35f83800$dea1fea9@SECURITY> Have we missed the November meeting already? Was it held last night on election night? Joel -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of SpencerUnderground Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:34 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: Re: [TCWUG] meeting for november and informal meeting this weekend On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 06:54:41AM -0500, steve ulrich wrote: > > >all- > >i've been able to come to terms with some scheduling snafus and would >like to outline the following suggested meeting times. > >for the month of november there are some hiccoughs for the meeting on >the first tuesday of the month. hence i'm suggesting that (and i've made >arrangements to support) the meeting be held on the second tuesday in >november (nov-12, 2002). > >to address some of the near term items i'm suggesting that we get >together this saturday afternoon at location close to downtown with >wireless access. i'm working out the details associated with getting >a room at one of the dunn bros. which also has wireless acces. more >on this as i get the details. That sounds great. As an alternative we could thinkk about the building we just had the installfest at. Of course we would have to talk with Scot Jenkins. This is just a thought off the top of my head. I am sure he would be receptive to the idea, we just need to propose it to him. There is also a book store/art gallery on Washington and (some street by the dome) that has a fairly large public area and wireless. I just fear dunn bros. will be very crowded. > > > > > > >-- >steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org >PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -- --*--SpencerUnderground--*-- http://autonomous.tv/ spencer@autonomous.tv Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2 68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3220 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20021106/962220ff/smime.bin From spencer at autonomous.tv Wed Nov 6 19:01:01 2002 From: spencer at autonomous.tv (SpencerUnderground) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting for november and informal meeting this weekend In-Reply-To: <20021015173424.GC13777@tcopensys.com> References: <20021015065441.A28733@botwerks.org> <20021015173424.GC13777@tcopensys.com> Message-ID: <20021106230557.GJ6833@tcopensys.com> ummmmmm. look at the headers. I sent this on 2002-10-15 maybe.....we could permanently move the mailing list? On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 12:34:24PM -0500, SpencerUnderground wrote: >On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 06:54:41AM -0500, steve ulrich wrote: >> >> >>all- >> >>i've been able to come to terms with some scheduling snafus and would >>like to outline the following suggested meeting times. >> >>for the month of november there are some hiccoughs for the meeting on >>the first tuesday of the month. hence i'm suggesting that (and i've made >>arrangements to support) the meeting be held on the second tuesday in >>november (nov-12, 2002). >> >>to address some of the near term items i'm suggesting that we get >>together this saturday afternoon at location close to downtown with >>wireless access. i'm working out the details associated with getting >>a room at one of the dunn bros. which also has wireless acces. more >>on this as i get the details. >That sounds great. As an alternative we could thinkk about the building >we just had the installfest at. Of course we would have to talk with >Scot Jenkins. This is just a thought off the top of my head. I am sure >he would be receptive to the idea, we just need to propose it to him. > >There is also a book store/art gallery on Washington and (some street by >the dome) that has a fairly large public area and wireless. >I just fear dunn bros. will be very crowded. >> >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >>steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org >>PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC >>_______________________________________________ >>Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>http://www.tcwug.org >>tcwug-list@tcwug.org >>https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > >-- > --*--SpencerUnderground--*-- >http://autonomous.tv/ spencer@autonomous.tv >Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2 68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754 > -- --*--SpencerUnderground--*-- http://autonomous.tv/ spencer@autonomous.tv Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2 68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20021106/d06c0179/attachment.pgp From tanner at real-time.com Wed Nov 6 20:28:46 2002 From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting for november and informal meeting this weekend In-Reply-To: <20021106230557.GJ6833@tcopensys.com>; from spencer@autonomous.tv on Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 05:05:57PM -0600 References: <20021015065441.A28733@botwerks.org> <20021015173424.GC13777@tcopensys.com> <20021106230557.GJ6833@tcopensys.com> Message-ID: <20021106192747.C7011@real-time.com> Quoting SpencerUnderground (spencer@autonomous.tv): > ummmmmm. > look at the headers. I sent this on 2002-10-15 > maybe.....we could permanently move the mailing list? There is already another list hosted by stevil, I believe he posted the address to both this list, his list and it's on his blog. -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.mn-linux.org, Minnesota, Linux | Fax : (952)943-8500 http://www.linuxjustworks.com | Linux Just Works! Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42 1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288 From chrome at real-time.com Thu Nov 7 16:35:51 2002 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] WEP key, password, and filter disclosure attack against multiple AP brands Message-ID: <20021107144350.U13561@real-time.com> anyone else heard about this/know more about it? http://www.netstumbler.com/article.php?sid=496 Carl Soderstrom. -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From joel at helgeson.com Fri Nov 8 10:46:27 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] WEP key, password, and filter disclosure attack against multiple AP brands In-Reply-To: <20021107144350.U13561@real-time.com> Message-ID: <000601c28734$588e11b0$2802a8c0@SECURITY> Yeah, we've been talking about it on the Kismet list for a while. Appears to be legit. Joel -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 2:44 PM To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: [TCWUG] WEP key, password, and filter disclosure attack against multiple AP brands anyone else heard about this/know more about it? http://www.netstumbler.com/article.php?sid=496 Carl Soderstrom. -- Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3220 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20021108/6ea5983d/smime.bin From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Sun Nov 10 19:39:04 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Network standards Message-ID: <3DCEF7B5.8C37ADC8@nkras.dsl.visi.com> Before I start applying for access with the Parks Dept. for an AP at Loring Park, and before I start investing in equipment to build a weatherproof unit, we really should settle on what standards and equipment to use. I can't proceed with the hotspot coordination without any discussion. I don't wish to proceed unilaterally. The best time to discuss it will be at the meeting. I'll bring my notes. =================================== Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com http://nkras.dsl.visi.com From sulrich at botwerks.org Mon Nov 11 01:23:03 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting this week... (w.o.: 11-11-2002) Message-ID: <20021111001223.A17927@botwerks.org> all- my apologies for the delay in getting this message out. it turns out that i have some hard commitments for work which mean that i won't be able to host the meeting this week. after bouncing at across the folks in #tcwug (albeit a faithful and small audience) it sounds like another informal meeting this saturday (nov-16, 2002) would be in order and we can follow up with a more formal meeting on tuesday nov-19, 2002. given my rather hectic travel schedule it might be in the best interests of the group as a whole to consider arrangements which are not so closely tied to my providing a meeting location. happy as work is to accomodate us in this matter it does fall upon me and my awkward at times schedule to handle this. i really don't like the notion of impacting the group negatively like this. might i suggest that we make planning for logistics and such a priority item for discussion when we meet? -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From sulrich at botwerks.org Mon Nov 11 15:02:22 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] informal meeting plans ... Message-ID: <20021111142427.A18778@botwerks.org> clarification on the informal meeting plans... here's some skinny on the informal meeting. location: dunn bros. coffee shop 530 University Avenue Minneapolis, MN 55414 612-331-5195 time: 4:00 PM CST misc: go to the table in back which has been reserved for the wireless users group. references ---------- [1] - http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&addtohistory=&address=530+University+Avenue&city=minneapolis&state=mn&zipcode=55414&homesubmit.x=20&homesubmit.y=13 -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From cncole at earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 15:07:56 2002 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Install Moos [hurdle] - what "availability" does TCWUG get? In-Reply-To: <2138.209.32.146.93.1034625076.squirrel@www.ieee.umn.edu> Message-ID: <003d01c27492$ce36cba0$fa67fea9@HPZT> Thanks for your lengthy reply. That clarifies much, but also indicates the exact problems I was trying to inquire about. I, and probably most in TCWUG, still have no idea what "availability" we will get, if any or anything. > -----Original Message----- > From: mgenelin@ieee.umn.edu [mailto:mgenelin@ieee.umn.edu] > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 2:51 PM > > I don't think we're "5x9" yet: you don't seem to understand > > "requirements" or "qualifications" for a multi-site community net as > TCWUG folk have described it: > When Ben and I approached the group, TC-WUG didn't know what > they wanted to do either. (Perhaps this is still the case?) Some members > argued for > hot sport deployment. Others wanted free internet access, and > didn't care > how they got it. Others wanted to setup a backbone. Finally, Ben and I > wanted to see TC-WUG doing something real, rather then just > blathering on > an internet email list. =) Given the directional chaos in TCWUG, you and Ben have done a truly excellent job. However.. > So, here we are. Ben has done some great work in pushing this project > through both the ham and TC-WUG clubs. Perhaps I need to re-state the > goal(s) here: > > 1. The ham club wants to use this as a promotional tool. Noble goal, but not a TCWUG goal. > We thought that by > partnering with > the TC-WUG we could give TC-WUG a project to do. TCWUG is not able to "partner" yet, and I don't think the HAM club has presented a written partnership proposal to deal with ownership, bandwidth control, and voting issues. > This is a > _direction_ to > head in for TC-WUG, and not the only thing that TC-WUG can be > doing. (I > hope that there are plenty of other projects going on in > TC-WUG land right > now!) I doubt that TCWUG has any project you don't see here, so yours is it for now. > The ham club only has one goal in mind: To recruit > students to our > club. Making HAMS probably is not a goal for TCWUG folk. > If students want to join TC-WUG, that's awesome too. By > joining both > clubs together we can create an awesome project for both to do. Problem: TCWUGs who are not UMN folk probably can't join that HAM group or have any say so in it, however. > 2. The original goal of the project was to do point-to-point > linking from > Moos Tower. The idea was to have coverage in the various > communities on > the east bank campus: Dinkeytown, Stadium Village and the Superblock > areas. This way, students who live off-campus can join the > ham club and > use the wireless bridge. Where would that leave TCWUG folk in competing for bandwidth utilization and allocation? Doesn't sound like a winner for TCWUG. Joining is required for use? How would TCWUG folk "join" something? Note: the Alumni Association (UMAA) no longer permits non-UMN members as "friends of the U" as they once did, and some may not have graduated yet either. > While Ben and I work out the technical and legal details of the equipment, the goal may change, but the original goal > stays the same. I'd bet there's LOTS more than just legalities of equipment in order to connect and share the UMN data and net access you mentioned. Not real clear that you and Ben are looking at enough of the issues in your goals yet. > 3. We wanted to give TC-WUG a direction to head in. It seemed > to me that > in recent months (April 2002 - July 2002) the TC-WUG mailing > list turned > into an "email etiquette" course more then a wireless > discussion group. We > wanted to excite the minds of the bright people on the list > that are into > wireless and RF technologies. Again a noble goal, but providing a means for students to access the campus isn't a link bandwidth utilization objective for TCWUGs who can't use it at all. FYI, I quit the UMAA internet ISP service last year after many years because of the poor bandwidth availability that actual members got. > > a) The UMN HAM club has done QSL cards and field days for a > long time, > but probably has never allowed non-members a voice.. > Huh? Those seem like fighting words there, Chuck. Think first: My original words were more complete and clear: the HAM club hasn't yet begun to permit actual non-UMN-member participation, and hasn't yet begun to own and manage off-site equipment, so the HAM club has less relevant history for a community WiFi project than TCWUG does. My point was that QSLs and such are probably the only elements of history that the HAM club has that go back to 1919 or whenever. Your 2 meter repeater stuff doesn't go that far, your transistor usage doesn't go that far, and WiFi doesn't go that far. The HAM club hasn't begun the things I'd expect to be necessary for a real project with TCWUG yet. Using TCWUG excitement and volunteers to get a UMN student facility may not be the best TCWUG partnership, but may be entertaining for some for now. > Correct, this is the first time that the ham club has setup an 802.11b > wireless network of any kind. But it's not the first time that we have > experimented with new digital modes. Understood: HAM clubs always experiment. My comment was directed at LONG TERM installations off-campus, not short-term experimental ones and not the on-campus ones. > We actively > work with the Minnesota Repeater Council, another ham group > in town and a > favorite part of the hobby for me. THAT's what TCWUG should develop partnership with! That's what the Gopher Club can help with! WiFi that the MRC could support fully is what TCWUG would be interested in.. . That probably would require HAM licensing for some aspects of participation in an MRC WiFi net, but I doubt that MRC would be doing much that only UMN students could use. > Many of our members are > involved with > other ham clubs... Good! That's where the GARC role as TCWUG partner can be most productive, IMHO. Available bandwidth on Moos would be nice too! > So -- we _do_ have experience working with other groups and > have had a lot > of fun working on projects and volunteering for activities > with and for > other people. I'm sure of that, but.. Nothing written, nothing permanent for OFF-CAMPUS = near or at zero for that kind of thing. . "Could [we] be open to a peer-level TC-WUG > partnership and > Wi-Fi"? I believe *we* approached *you*. As a matter of fact, I *know* > that *we* approached *you* since I was there pitching this to > the group > with Ben a few months ago. No: I heard words and see more words written, but have yet to see the Gopher Club actually write or DO something that amounts to sharing equipment and bandwidth in a real way with TCWUG. What you outline seems like GARC holding out its hand for donations from us and for GARC purposes alone: GARC hasn't put in writing yet just what TCWUG might get by donating time and equipment to GARC. > > d) the UMN HAM club alumni and board doesn't seem to have TCWUG's > interests as top priorities... only a few people there do. > Huh? I didn't know that the Gopher Amateur Radio Club had a "board". > Perhaps this is something I'll have to chat with the rest of the gang > about. You'd think I would know about a "board" being the > president of the > Gopher Amateur Radio Club. =) If GARC is a real non-profit thing, it has legal and other accountabilities to UMN and to the state of MN and to IRS. Otherwise, it's wholly owned by UMN, and under UMN insurance, etc. In either case, there's an official governing body and reporting of annual finances under some set of laws. As Pres, you should know when or how (or whether) GARC is legal. How to make a long-term agreement would be described in those top-level and next level legal papers (Articles of Inc and ByLaws - or equiv). > > Since you have elevated yourself to be the email spokesperson > for TC-WUG... Speaking out of curiosity and constructive intent ONLY. Knowledgeable but NOT "elevating". The web site needs some FAQs or equiv. I would help with that if asked by the leaders. > what exactly _are_ the "TC-WUG's interests"? No idea. Only looking to see what's visible here, whatever it may be. If it becomes a real group with a stated mission, I might be interested or might not. Depends on what the mission may be. So far it's just a rag-tag online technical forum and that's OK. We should recognize when or whether or how it becomes more. > If the only interests are "I > want free internet access" I think you are hanging out with the wrong > group. =) We're no more sure what kind of access or availability that hanging out with GARC will get for non-members either :-) > "Clearly presented" must mean that Chuck wants something in writing. > Perhaps we can discuss "writing things down" at the next > TC-WUG meeting, > if everyone really wants to get all-formal-like-that-and-stuff. Right in the following sense :-) A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on. -Samuel Goldwyn (note that GARC may not be legally able to execute written agreements with off-campus groups!) Regards, and thanks much for helping to clarify! This clarifying effort should help GARC also. What you and Ben want to do may not be legally possible for GARC to do with any TCWUG access. Chuck From joel at helgeson.com Mon Nov 11 20:34:03 2002 From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:33 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] informal meeting plans ... In-Reply-To: <20021111142427.A18778@botwerks.org> Message-ID: <000501c289ec$b67df370$2802a8c0@SECURITY> On what date? -----Original Message----- From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On Behalf Of steve ulrich Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:24 PM To: wireless@tc-unwired.net; tcwug-list@tcwug.org Subject: [TCWUG] informal meeting plans ... clarification on the informal meeting plans... here's some skinny on the informal meeting. location: dunn bros. coffee shop 530 University Avenue Minneapolis, MN 55414 612-331-5195 time: 4:00 PM CST misc: go to the table in back which has been reserved for the wireless users group. references ---------- [1] - http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&addtohistory=&address=53 0+University+Avenue&city=minneapolis&state=mn&zipcode=55414&homesubmit.x =20&homesubmit.y=13 -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC _______________________________________________ Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3220 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20021111/ef7863a8/smime.bin From bgilbertson at ieee.org Tue Nov 12 09:29:22 2002 From: bgilbertson at ieee.org (Bob Gilbertson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Vivato 802.11 switch Message-ID: <3DD10F5E.2050602@ieee.org> Kind of a neat idea, using a steerable phased array antenna to increase gain and S/N ratio in certain directions on-the-fly. Wonder how many users it can handle before it bogs down though. http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20021104S0025 Some more articles on company's site: http://www.vivato.net/newsevents_inthenews.html Bob From sulrich at botwerks.org Tue Nov 12 09:39:05 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] informal meeting plans ... In-Reply-To: <000501c289ec$b67df370$2802a8c0@SECURITY> References: <20021111142427.A18778@botwerks.org> <000501c289ec$b67df370$2802a8c0@SECURITY> Message-ID: <20021112144542.GB32405@botwerks.org> my apologies - the informal meeting would be on nov-16, 2002. when last we saw our hero (Monday, Nov 11, 2002), Joel R. Helgeson was madly tapping out: > On what date? > > -----Original Message----- > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On > Behalf Of steve ulrich > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:24 PM > To: wireless@tc-unwired.net; tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Subject: [TCWUG] informal meeting plans ... > > > clarification on the informal meeting plans... > > here's some skinny on the informal meeting. > > location: > dunn bros. coffee shop > 530 University Avenue > Minneapolis, MN 55414 > 612-331-5195 > > time: > 4:00 PM CST > > misc: > go to the table in back which has been reserved for the wireless > users group. > > > references > ---------- > > [1] - > http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&addtohistory=&address=53 > 0+University+Avenue&city=minneapolis&state=mn&zipcode=55414&homesubmit.x > =20&homesubmit.y=13 > > > > > -- > steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org > PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, > Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Tue Nov 12 22:12:26 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Gateway Message-ID: Before this weekend, I'm going to buy a machine to be configured as a gateway. I won't buy the wireless cards until an equipment standard is agreed upon. I'm ready to move on this as soon as we're ready. I have no problem funding my part of the project. The platform will be either Debian/GNU based Linux or Solaris x86. Neal. =================================== Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com http://nkras.dsl.visi.com From ben at nerp.net Thu Nov 14 01:59:09 2002 From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos Install Goals In-Reply-To: <1213.128.101.171.205.1034725118.squirrel@www.ieee.umn.edu> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 well.. here were my original goals, atleast the ones i remember. #1: Provide a starting point for a metro wireless network. #2: Experiment with medium to long distance data networking in the metro. #3: Provide a base for business and non-business wireless spectrum allocation and sharing. #4: Promote the use of ham radio, and ham clubs. - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9rK7uflzKmtpiQEMRAngNAJ0dhVApVtoGgr3fcqO3rlaMo6V4SACdGVbS B+eeeazlY/a9g6IsN+mqbsc= =CVCh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Thu Nov 14 08:37:05 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos Install Goals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: Ben Kochie > well.. here were my original goals, atleast the ones i remember. > > #1: Provide a starting point for a metro wireless network. Valid for starting a community network. > > #2: Experiment with medium to long distance data networking in the metro. Also valid. > > #3: Provide a base for business and non-business wireless spectrum > allocation and sharing. Business? I thought this was going to be a cooperative effort. > > #4: Promote the use of ham radio, and ham clubs. Immaterial. From ben at nerp.net Thu Nov 14 09:20:20 2002 From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Moos Install Goals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > > > > #3: Provide a base for business and non-business wireless spectrum > > allocation and sharing. > > Business? I thought this was going to be a cooperative effort. it is, but I wanted to include the business (internet) community in the effort so that we can provide a starting point for spectrum allocation. If we don't do something like this, we will have the same situation we have in other areas where a business decides to plop down equipment, on the same channel, and refuse to budge. I want to be able to have a cross section of public and private experts in wireless be able to help advance the efficient use of spectrum. > > #4: Promote the use of ham radio, and ham clubs. > > Immaterial. Immaterial for you, but one of my long-term goals. - -ben "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE907svflzKmtpiQEMRAuZtAJ4whiXE1RZPehBh+RmXF7C9iXrD8ACfb6u7 hu+sjSyxA92WUiW6PYc1SY4= =2XZP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Thu Nov 14 19:03:36 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [wireless] Re: [TCWUG] Moos Install Goals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: Ben Kochie >>> #3: Provide a base for business and non-business wireless spectrum >>> allocation and sharing. >> >> Business? I thought this was going to be a cooperative effort. > it is, but I wanted to include the business (internet) community in the > effort so that we can provide a starting point for spectrum allocation. > If we don't do something like this, we will have the same situation we > have in other areas where a business decides to plop down equipment, on > the same channel, and refuse to budge. That's why we, as the originators of a community wireless network should be the first to plop down equipment and refuse to budge. The business interests have lobbies in Washington. We . Cooperating with the business community on access to networks and site locations for APs is a legitimate concern. Spectrum allocation? Let them go to the next FCC auction. > I want to be able to have a cross > section of public and private experts in wireless be able to help advance > the efficient use of spectrum. To whose benefit? > >>> #4: Promote the use of ham radio, and ham clubs. >> >> Immaterial. > Immaterial for you, but one of my long-term goals. > > - -ben Your personal long term goals and those of a community wireless network in the Twin Cities are not the same. Amateur Radio already have packet networks on their spectrum. Let them use theirs. We'll develop our own. From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Thu Nov 14 19:17:22 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [wireless] Re: [TCWUG] Moos Install Goals In-Reply-To: <20021114184154.C6611@hexapodia.org> Message-ID: > From: Andy Isaacson > On Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 06:19:30PM -0600, Neal wrote: >>>>> #4: Promote the use of ham radio, and ham clubs. >>>> >>>> Immaterial. >>> Immaterial for you, but one of my long-term goals. >> >> Your personal long term goals and those of a community wireless network in >> the Twin Cities are not the same. Amateur Radio already have packet networks >> on their spectrum. Let them use theirs. We'll develop our own. > > So? Ben titled his email, "MY goals". One of *my* goals in this > project is to wear a pink tutu on top of Moos tower[1], and that would > be valid in my list of goals, whether or not anyone else shared that > goal. Anyone's individual goals are secondary to the primary goal of building a wireless community network. > > If we're going to have some "List of Goals" or something else > marketroidish, Without project planning and what is to be achieved by the project would doom the entire effort. "Marketdroidish" makes it sound as if Project Engineering Is Not A Good Thing(tm). > then of course the elements of that list should be > amenable to everyone. But this was a mail to the list enumerating one > individual's goals. Some of which will divert resources from or dilute what I believe to be the prime directive of this entire exercise: #/bin/sh #/usr/local/reiterate -v . From adi at hexapodia.org Thu Nov 14 21:34:29 2002 From: adi at hexapodia.org (Andy Isaacson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [wireless] Re: [TCWUG] Moos Install Goals In-Reply-To: ; from nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com on Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 07:05:51PM -0600 References: <20021114184154.C6611@hexapodia.org> Message-ID: <20021114192516.D6611@hexapodia.org> Sigh. I wanted to *lower* noise on the mailing lists, 'cause I know *I* hate it when people have these drawn-out semantic arguments rather than getting stuff done. That's why I did *not* reply to the list, and no thanks to Neal for CCing the list on his reply to my private message (and editing my text to boot). On Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 07:05:51PM -0600, Neal wrote: > Andy Isaacson wrote: > > So? Ben titled his email, "MY goals". One of *my* goals in this > > project is to wear a pink tutu on top of Moos tower[1], and that would > > be valid in my list of goals, whether or not anyone else shared that > > goal. The footnote that he left out was [1] not really. > Anyone's individual goals are secondary to the primary goal of building a > wireless community network. Volunteers do stuff because they want to. Whatever goals they have are their own business (until they start forcing others to do stuff). -andy (not wearing a pink tutu) From becky at pihl.us Thu Nov 14 21:34:54 2002 From: becky at pihl.us (Becky Lynn Pihl) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Please help edit proposal to The Board of Water Commissioners of the St. Paul Regional Water Service. Message-ID: <006f01c28c46$f48bd7c0$0200000a@iaxs.net> Dear tcwug-ers: As I resident of the City of St. Paul who (currently) has some time on my hands, I have been preparing a proposal that I am going to put forward to the Board of Water Commissioners of the 'St. Paul Regional Water Service'. * I'd like them to consider: (1) building their own WLAN on the Antenna Towers and Water Towers that they already own, and (2) going into business as their own WISP. I expect that I will soon have "version 0.9" of my E-mail/proposal ready to send off. I would like your input as to: * How I should further edit the my proposal's text and * any persons who would be interested in attending either one of two in person meetings I hope to schedule in the near future. NOTE TO LIST MODERATOR: The last time I printed out the proposal it was 7 pages long. If you feel it would be appropriate, I will send it in to tcwug-list@tcwug.org as a message. If this sounds interesting to you, please E-mail me directly at becky@pihl.us, as I'm sorry to say that I do not read the tcwug list with a great deal of consistancy. Sincerely yours, Leif O. Pihl From leaf at real-time.com Fri Nov 15 01:31:26 2002 From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Please help edit proposal to The Board of Water Commissioners of the St. Paul Regional Water Service. In-Reply-To: <006f01c28c46$f48bd7c0$0200000a@iaxs.net> Message-ID: Please send the proposal to me at leaf@real-time.com and I will make it available for download from the TCWUG website and reply back to here with a URL. Thanks. - Rick Tanner leaf@real-time.com On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Becky Lynn Pihl wrote: > > NOTE TO LIST MODERATOR: > The last time I printed out the proposal it was 7 pages long. > If you feel it would be appropriate, I will send it in to tcwug-list@tcwug.org as a message. From nryberg at mendota-bridge.com Fri Nov 15 13:47:18 2002 From: nryberg at mendota-bridge.com (Nick Ryberg) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [wireless] Re: [TCWUG] Moos Install Goals References: Message-ID: <004101c28d00$bd4b72b0$3e0c0a0a@roosevelt> > > That's why we, as the originators of a community wireless network should be > the first to plop down equipment and refuse to budge. The business interests > have lobbies in Washington. We . So - we're pretty much stuck with what we've got available. > > Cooperating with the business community on access to networks and site > locations for APs is a legitimate concern. Spectrum allocation? Let them go > to the next FCC auction. > Here's a reality check for you - the wireless spectrum that we're working in is open to everyone. That means that a business can legitimately 'plop' down equipment near ours and create a noisy environment for the end users. If I remember correctly, this is already happening somewhere else - Seattle?? Someone else probably knows what I'm talking about. If we don't want to work with them _ahead_ of time, there's a much lower chance that they're going to work with us after they've invested in equipment, AP sites, etc... The Spectrum has been allocated - nothing in our budget range (=$0) is going to affect that. > > I want to be able to have a cross > > section of public and private experts in wireless be able to help advance > > the efficient use of spectrum. > > To whose benefit? Ours. If we don't work together, and this is something that highly technical people seem to have major issues with, we going to be a small interest group with no realizable goals - it's all just dreams of electric sheep that don't mean anything in the long run. > > > > >>> #4: Promote the use of ham radio, and ham clubs. > >> > >> Immaterial. > > Immaterial for you, but one of my long-term goals. > > > > - -ben > > Your personal long term goals and those of a community wireless network in > the Twin Cities are not the same. Amateur Radio already have packet networks > on their spectrum. Let them use theirs. We'll develop our own. I could be wrong, but I believe that wireless is dependant on radio waves, and without the technical knowledge that Amateur Radio operators bring to the electronic table, our efforts never be anything more than surfing wireless A/P's at coffee shops. Long range radio, especially at this end of the spectrum, is a heavy technical challenge that takes real world experience - something that most Ham radio people have gotten through the hobby that they love. I'll admit it - I don't know jack about antennas. I do know that if we don't have something better than what comes with your commercially available AP, we'll be broadcasting only to the pigeons that share space with the top of Moos tower and any other tall structures that we can wiggle our way on... Let's put it in real world terms - if a family member came to you and said, "I think computers are a waste of time, you shouldn't be spending your life in front of a monitor, get a real life, and oh, yeah, by the way, can you help me install Windows XP?" What would you say to them? From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com Sun Nov 17 18:22:52 2002 From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Linux gateway development Message-ID: <3DD826FF.605F568A@nkras.dsl.visi.com> I will be concurrently developing gateways using Redhat 8.0 (kernel 2.4.18) and Debian 2.1 (slink) or 3.0 (woody). Redhat was chosen because of access to the 2.4.x kernel. Though Debian 3.0 uses 2.2 as a default kernel, 2.4 is available. From sulrich at botwerks.org Tue Nov 19 12:28:56 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:34 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] meeting reminder ... (tonight: 11-19-2002) Message-ID: <20021119173741.GA14139@botwerks.org> all - just a reminder that the monthly meeting is tonight - same time, same bat channel. this week andy warner will be gracing us with an RF basics presentation. this will focus on items of interest to folks working with radios trying to move data around. - logistics - ============= time ==== 6:30 pm cst - tuesday, november 19, 2002 place ===== cisco systems office - bloomington, mn address ------- 7900 - international dr. suite 400 bloomington, mn 55425-1510 directions ========== from the north -------------- * take 35w south * take 494 east to the 34th avenue exit, turn right * immediately veer right and take the next right at the light onto 80th street * take the next immediate right onto international drive. from the south -------------- * just like coming from the north except you take 35w north to 494. from the (east|west) -------------------- * reaching 35w and following the above directions is left as an exercise for the reader/attendee. After you make it onto international drive ... * international plaza is the large blue glass building to your left * you may park in the ramp and take the ramp elevators to level 1 * proceed through the glass doors to your right and down the lobby foyer the main bank of elevators * take the elevator to level 4 note: you will need to sign in at the guard desk and indicate that you are there for the wireless users group meeting in the cisco office. -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC From sulrich at botwerks.org Fri Nov 29 13:24:15 2002 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:37:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] rf primer slides available online ... Message-ID: <20021129113134.A28296@botwerks.org> all- just to follow up on this before i forget about it. the slides from andy warner's presentation at the last wireless users meeting are available for your perusal[1]. i haven't seen anything regarding this on the lists so i figured i would get the content online. for those of you that missed it, andy gave a really nice presentation regarding RF technology as it applies to wireless networking. the slides are well worth the review. references ---------- http://www.tc-unwired.net/misc-docs/rf_primer.pdf -- steve ulrich sulrich@botwerks.org PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7 AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC