RE: promotion ramps (Was: RE: CF: Long term experimental ideas)

[dragonm <dragonm@leech.org>]

-----Original Message-----
From: Hwei Sheng TEOH
To: crossfire@ifi.uio.no
Sent: 9/16/99 7:18 PM
Subject: CF: promotion ramps (Was: RE: CF: Long term experimental ideas)


Attached after this mail is a tentative list I've come up with so far,
of possible "promotion ramps" or promotion sequences for monsterous
players. Note that I haven't actually met many monsters in the game yet, so
I can't really tell right off what sequence would befit them. I haven't
figured out most of lake country yet (only got to ebony thief guild and
wizard tower, haven't solved any of the guild quests yet and got stuck on
the other puzzles in lake country), and with the recent problems with the
pupland maps, I pretty much can't go any further than I have. So I haven't
encountered quite a few monsters yet.
-----Begin Response-----
I'd recommend reading the spoiler section of the web page.  There's a fairly
comprehensive list of monsters there.  I haven't checked to see how
comprehensive, but I imagine it's pretty thorough.
----------

But with the monsters I know, now that I examined them in more detail,
I'm not so sure that *any* monster should be playable by the player.

Some, like acid blobs, are currently meaningless to play (can only last
one attack), unless we make some really innovative modifications to how acid
blobs work. We could have acid blob hit a monster, and leave a temporary
acid pool that becomes an acid blob again after a while. The temporary acid
pool will be defenseless against attacks; but as the level of the acid blob
goes up, it does more damage and thus can take out tougher monsters with one
hit, and so a player might be able to survive this way. This will be a
totally radical way to play, which I like, actually. But overdoing this will
just make the code too messy (one could argue, is all this complication
really necessary?)
-----Begin Response-----
Hmm.  There are a number of different systems where that's how acid blobs
actually DO work.  I've never encountered one in Crossfire, so I didn't know
our version was one-shot.

In any case, one could also argue that no complication is really necessary.
The only thing necessary is some bug fixes, some stability enhancements,
maybe some performance enhancements, and a little bit of tuning.  That's all
that's really required to reach v1.0.  But obviously we've decided a great
many feature enhancements are in order too.  This is merely another feature.
How complicated it is is ultimately up to us.  Personally, I'd like to be
able to play an acid blob as well.  Certainly we'll need to strike a happy
balance.  Mark has also expressed some doubts as to the relevance of certain
monster types for human play, and I find I agree.
----------

Some, like many under the animals category, doesn't seem to have a wide
enough scope to be interesting. Eg. how many quests could a cobra solve, and
even if you managed it, the artifacts would probably be totally useless
anyway.  And this disadvantage doesn't come with any offsetting advantage,
like the beholder series has with magic. Arguably, we could make the poison
attack much more pronounced as the level increases, and perhaps add a
`strangle' attack to anacondas (when you achieve that promotion). But again,
a lot of special-case programming which may not add that much to the game.
-----Begin Response-----
In the case of the animal races, I'd still like to be able to play them, but
you're right, making them able to advance more than a little isn't really
worth it.  Since a lot of what we're doing is efforts to improve the
suspension of disbelief, we definitely don't want to start "reaching" in
order to make animal races on par with traditional character advancement
ramps.  Playable animal race might be fun simply because the game already
features pets.  How would you like to have a pet with a truly human
intelligence?  It could be very interesting.  But also, as Mark says, it's a
ways down the list of priorities.
----------
The insect races might be interesting, but again, rather limited in
their scope. Unless, of course, we start a whole bunch of insect maps/quests
for insect players, but that sounds a little too far. (Might as well go play
Sim Ant or something!!)
-----Begin Response-----
I'd say the insects fall into the same class as the animals.  Attempting to
make them on par with 100+ level advancement is kind of ridiculous.  What's
a level 100 ant capable of?  :)
----------
With the monsters that seem interesting enough to be player-controlled,
the three humanoid series I came up with are an interesting way to enhance
the interest of the existing player classes. I particularly like the notion
of starting out as an apprentice, and eventually becoming an independent
wizard.  (Note that I'm not really differentiating between race/class here,
since the existing monsters aren't structured that way).

-----Begin Response-----
I think it behooves us to bear in mind that a large part of the thrust of
this idea is to provide DIFFERENT experiences.  Going out of our way to try
to make the experience of playing an imp identical to the experience of
playing a human is ridiculous and counter-productive.  If you can't advance
to a level 100 Dread, that's tough.  You're not playing a Dread for that
purpose.  You're playing it to be different, while still having some
hack'n'slash as well as role playing opportunities.

I've interspersed my comments throughout the list below.
----------


------------------------------------------------------------------------
CF promotion ramps...

New monsters are written in parentheses.


angels:

angel --> light angel --> archangel	(are the last two actually
different??)
OR
(messenger) --> angel --> archangel
-----Begin Response-----
One at least of these is good.  I'm not sure which I prefer yet.
----------

animals:

bat --> giant bat --> (vampire bat?)
-----Begin Response-----
Sounds neat.
----------
snake --> cobra --> (anaconda?)
OR: snake --> serpent --> fire serpent
-----Begin Response-----
The second is preferred.  The first is reaching.
----------
(puppy) --> dog --> big dog			(ala NetHack :-)
-----Begin Response-----
Gotta have it, for human controlled pets.  :)
----------
(hamster) --> mouse --> rat
-----Begin Response------
Forget it.  If somebody wants to play as a hamster, they should go play one
of the furry MUDs or something.  And mice and rats are two different
species.  Possibly allow play as either of them, but neither advances,
except maybe rat to giant rat.  (Shades of Princess Bride...)
----------
scorpion --> (red scorpion) --> (giant scorpion)
-----Begin Response-----
This would be interesting, even though I suppose it falls under the insect
class.  It has promise, though.
----------
shadowpup --> (adolescent shadow tiger?) --> shadow tiger
-----Begin Response-----
Another gotta have it, for pets, and 'cause shadow tigers are cool.  :)
----------

dragons:

(baby wyvern) --> wyvern --> chaos wyvern	(is this even
sensible??)
-----Begin Response-----
Well, _I_ think so, but other might disagree.
----------
dragon hatchling --> baby dragon --> dragon	(baby dragon is pretty
powerful:
						 should make them
bigger)
OR: dragon hatchling --> young dragon --> dragon
-----Begin Response-----
The second is preferable, I think.
----------
elec dragon hatchling --> young elec dragon --> elec dragon
cold dragon hatchling --> young cold dragon --> cold dragon
-----Begin Response-----
In keeping with the first.  These are definitely must-haves.  In the
majority of the literature, dragons live a very long time, can ultimately
have much power, and have quite a bit of spell knowledge.  Being able to
play as a dragon is a long-held wish of many an RPGer, I'd say.
----------
faerie:

deathtree --> ent			(not sure how to make three
stages)
-----Begin Response-----
Not sure this is appropriate.  I'd rather see enting --> ent, and possibly
Huorn --> Deathtree, but I'm not sure the second one is really that useful.
Being able to play as an ent would be cool, but Huorn/Deathtree falls into
the nearly mindless category Mark was objecting to.
----------

giants:

ogre --> hill giant --> cyclops?	(don't see how you lose an eye!
:-)
titan --> DK --> EDK			(does this make sense??)
-----Begin Response-----
Here, Mark's objections are most pertinent.  All of these don't really have
progressive relations to each other.  I think they should be playable,
though.  Ogre and titan and such would fall into the category of Plain Old
Human.  I.e. they don't change forms as they gain levels.  They start out as
weak, and they can use weapons and armor.  I don't think everything HAS to
progress identically.  I proposed promotions for many of the monster types
because they have innate disabilities, like a total inability to use weapons
and armor.  I don't think the proposal should be taken to extremes.
----------

imps:

imp --> big demon --> greater demon?	(this one looks a bit too
drastic)
OR: imp --> big demon --> balrog?	(still kinda drastic)
demon --> raas --> big demon		(this one's iffy)
-----Begin Response-----
I think the first is best.  It answers Mark's objection that these ramps
shouldn't start out too strong.  It's only too drastic if we chop down the
total number of allowable levels to something significantly below 60 or so
for human.  If a level 70 wizard can kill a greater demon with two ice
storms, I don't think it's too drastic.  The second isn't good, and we might
give some thought to eliminating the balrog entirely.  Tolkein's estate
actually has an enforceable claim on the name in the United States and
Britain, and possibly elsewhere.  The third mixes Eastern and Western types,
which just looks odd.
----------

insects:

xan --> (???) --> byakie		(does this even make sense??)
ant --> warrior ant --> spitting ant	(not sure of the order--which is
more
					 powerful??)
OR: ant --> work ant --> warrior ant
OR: ant larvae --> ant --> flying ant	(three degrees of liberation...)
-----Begin Response-----
These might be going beyond reasonable bounds.  See remarks above.  Too much
effort for too little gain.
----------

humanoids:

(apprentice) --> conjurer --> wizard
(mental patient) --> madman --> wild pyromaniac
(pickpocket) --> thief --> (mastermind)		(ala Holmes' archenemy)
-----Begin Response-----
The first would have been good, except we're doing away with the class/race
binding and splitting it up, so the title of wizard becomes a class, not a
race.  Might as well forget it.
The second is probably inappropriate.  It's possible to make an AI act
insane, but if a human player controls characters that are supposed to be
totally deranged, the effect is going to be very screwy.  They're more
descriptions of the tendencies of a human rather than races or classes
anyway, so I think they can be discarded from consideration.
The third is the same as the first.
----------

orc-races:

kobold --> orc --> goblin		(not sure if this is sensible)
OR: orc --> goblin --> gnoll
small troll --> (troll) --> big troll	(rename current troll to big
troll)
OR: small troll --> troll -->gaelotroll
-----Begin Response-----
Here again, Mark's objections are pertinent.  I agree with him: a kobold
isn't an orc.  All of these also fall into the humanoid weapon-wielding,
armor-wearing category, so I think they should be treated as ogres, as
above.
----------

undead:

skeleton --> (elite skeleton) --> skeleton captain	(ala pirate
myths)
ghost --> ghast --> nightmare
* --> lich --> demilich			(for whoever wants to sell their
soul)
-----Begin Response-----
All three of these are very good as is.  An ogre lich sounds entertaining.
----------

unnaturals:

unnaturals/slime:
slime --> green slime --> ???
(muddy pudding) --> brown pudding --> black pudding
-----Begin Response-----
See Mark's comments again.  I agree with him.  No ramps for the slimes and
puddings; they just get bigger as they get stronger.
----------

unnaturals/beholder:
(floating eye) --> beholder --> dread
OR: beholder --> dread --> (chaos eye)	(some nasty beefed up Dread
mutant --
					 maybe call it Cacodemon ala
Doom)
-----Begin Response-----
Let's NOT lift a name from Doom.  Chaos Eye sounds good.  Better than merely
Floating Eye.  It might be fine to just have two stages here.

DM
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