Re: CF: Re: Preventing players from repeating quests

[David Andrew Michael Noelle <dave@Straylight.org>]

> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:33:44 -0500
> From: Steven Lembark <lembark@wrkhors.com>
> 
> i'm not talking about a no-admittance clause -- would be
> hard to predict if a 17-level figter or magic user is
> "too high" for any map.  i'm talking about adjusting 
> the payoff.  when the stuff is generated at the end 
> of your quest (i.e., the code goes through the motions
> of populating treasure rooms, etc) then it can compare
> your level to a value and reduce the treasure value 
> as your level exceeds the limit.  thus you can get 
> exp replaying maps, you just won't get equal treasure.
> 
[...]
> 
> i'm describing a 1-time adjustment, at pickup time.  and, yes,
> folks could cheat by pulling a level-1 character behind them
> to pick up the items. for the most part, however, it would mean
> that a high-level character playing a low-level map would get
> less payoff.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see a need for this.
Do high-level players ever actually go through low or medium-level
quests?  The treasure generated in a dungeon that is no longer a
challenge will no longer be worth getting, even if it's not adjusted
for that player's level.  What would a 12th level warrior want with a
sword +1?  And the experience gained won't make a dent in the amount
needed for the next level.  So, why bother?  If there *is* any
important treasure there worth going back for after the rest of the
quest is no longer a challenge, that treasure must be too valuable for
that quest.

At most, I would attach detectors to the entrance to give a warning
message to players below a minimum level and a "don't bother" message
for players above some maximum level.  Locking them out isn't very
realistic, or is too easy to disbelieve if you prefer that term.
Lowering the rewards for players who already aren't benefiting from
those rewards is redundant.


> problem with priest:
> 
> 	you need money to get spells.
> 	you don't know any spells yet.
> 	you don't have a good weapon and move slowly.
> 	you can't kill much of anything without spells.
> 	you don't have money to get spells.
> 	you can't kill anything to get money.

All spellcasters have those problems, although priests have a greater
chance of being randomly given a useless spell.


> ad nauseum.  if the `birth' process was guaranteed of 
> (a) not duplicating the spells and (b) giving out at
> least one spell that gained exp then the person would
> have a chance to get exp.  as they get exp their god
> grants them spells.  this gives them sufficient capacity
> to get points, etc.  it breaks the cycle described above.

Assuming that races and classes are seperated and classes are
determined by joining guilds, each god's temple could have a
specialized guild.  There, NPC priests would teach the new player
priest the appropriate starting skills and give fixed, not random,
starting spells determined by the cult.

Gods will already grant new prayers of their attuned path if the
priest is of sufficient level but doesn't know that prayer yet.  It
just takes a whole lot of prayer, and doesn't apply to prayers that
are available in books.  That could be changed so that there would be
a better chance of the god granting attuned prayers that /are/
available as books, depending on the priest's level compared to the
prayer level.  That way, a 1st level priest could pray for a good long
while and eventually have all the 1st level prayers that god is
attuned to.  Or get just the starting prayers the guild teaches and
come back at 3rd level to quickly fill in the rest, pick up some 2nd
level prayers, and maybe a couple 3rd level.

Similarly, mage guilds could have libraries where they could learn
spells if they have less than a minimum number of spells for their
level.  A fifth level mage, for example, who only has three 3rd level
spells and no 5th, would be allowed to borrow one 5th and two more 3rd
from the library.  These books should either be reusable but confined
to the library or replenished by donations from higher-level members.


> >  That example for xray is harder to do, since there is no idea of clay vs wood
> > vs rock walls.
> 
> doors vs. walls, then.  or distance.

X-Ray is just a bad example.  It lasts longer at higher levels, but it
doesn't see further or see more.  That's the way it's implemented.  It
just skips the line-of-sight and darkness calculations within two
squares of the player.  Increasing the range might not be too hard,
but making certain materials more or less opaque to X-Ray would be.


> if you wander through the newer maps there are dozens
> of places that if you miss one thing a rather large 
> map becomes useless.  this is part of the `quest
> of clues' method vs. `hack through bigger monsters'.
> it may be the case that some maps are better suited
> to magic users -- or partys that involve magic users.
> 
> there are plenty of places that  fireborn cannot get
> into because they require physical contact to get 
> thigns like castle guards out of the way in no-magic
> zones.  no magic, no access to fireborn.  if there
> were some maps that had varying levels of difficulty
> and required higher levels of spell-power (or mental
> for spotting hidden locks) then it can add some
> variety to the game.

All spellcasters have that problem to some degree.  Low hit points,
poor combat skills, low strength, light weapons and armour, etc.
There are way too many no-magic areas in the game, just to prevent
things like Dimension Door from letting mages cheat.  Asyvan Temple is
a perfect example.  The whole temple is unholy and anti-magic to keep
people from getting through the doors without using keys.  There's no
need for that.  It keeps priests and mages from using magic to prepare
for battle, for no good reason.  And doorways in general are usually
magic-proof, which makes no sense and is thoroughly unnecessary once
the door has been opened.


> guilds would solve some of this.  they might be
> places that more of the difficult quests start out.

If quests start in guilds, would they be accessable to players from
other guilds?


> we already have `lock picks of high quality'.  why not have another
> level of lockpick that can pick speical-key doors w/ rather low 
> probability modified by user's skill?  another plus might be that
> the thieves guild would be the place to get them...

I'd rather not have special locks require special picks.  Better
lockpicks might give a Dex bonus, or even a skill bonus, but they
shouldn't be required.  Allowing special locks to be picked at all is
the same problem as Dimension Door.  Then thieves can get to the
treasure without having to complete the quest.  Less critical special
doors might be pickable, with some high difficulty rating, but not all
of them.


> >  I agree on that point.  If casting god power, you would think the god would
> > know what to do.  Changing the code so that harmful priest spells don't hurt
> > party members probably would not be hard to do, and unlikely to have any bad
> > effects.  Not healing monsters is a little more difficult I think (unless we
> > make the assumption a player will never want to heal a monster).
> 
> even if the gods don't, we certianly can :-)
> 
> existing code can differentiate between players and monsters.
> why not `hp += a->is_monster ? 0 : HPADJUST'?  it would work
> the same way as `destruction' which doesn't subtract HP from
> players but does from monsters.

I think you missed the point.  Of course the healing spells can be
programmed not to heal monsters.  The difficulty is determining
whether the player healed the monster by accident or for some reason
really does want to heal it.  I would suggest that healing spells
should count aggressive, unfriendly monsters as a miss, but heal
friendly or passive monsters normally.

BTW: One of my recent adjustments to the Golem code was to make Holy
Servants and Avatars avoid damaging the player who summoned them.  If
you happen to cross its path and catch some lag, your god won't kill
you for it.  It shouldn't be too hard to make them refuse to attack
party members and do the same for wounding spells.

Mages are a different story.  Their attacks aren't powered by some
other entity who can correct for their mistakes.  If you cast a
fireball on yourself, you get burnt.  So does everyone around you.
That's why spellcasting monsters are immune to all forms of attack
with any magical source.  If prevents them from frying themselves and
each other by accident.  Personally, I think we need a better way to
do this, but I can't think of an easy way that would work any better.

-- 
            -Dave Noelle,                 dave@Straylight.org
            -the Villa Straylight,  http://www.straylight.org
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